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WW2 locomotive building.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Eightpot, May 26, 2017.

  1. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    One should never forget weight limits/route availability. Beeching and bridge upgrades over the passage of years seems to suggest its less of a consideration now, but I think it was a very real issue in the 50s.
    But yes, the fact that some of the types were restricted to only a few regions does suggest that they might have been able to cut down a little. Maybe the Midland small engine obsession was not quite dead - or at least replaced with a medium engine obsession!
     
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  2. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    Another point from post war locomotives, particularly the LMS is that they designed and built a type specifically for light branch type duties, the Ivatt class 2 2-6-0, perpetuated virtually unaltered by BR as the 78xxx class.

    This appeared to be spending quite a bit on re-equipping services which were not going to generate much revenue, which is presumably why, previously old pre grouping stuff was put onto these jobs to see their time out with minimal, if any, expenditure
     
  3. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    But what was the cost of keeping those elderly types running?
     
  4. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    Presumably less than building a new class, and would then be replaced after a few more years by slightly less old ones, before the routes closed and/or Type 1 or 2 diesels took over
     
  5. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    I'm curious about this, having read somewhere that Riddles was keen on the ergonomics (they they may not have called it that in those days) and deliberately chose a reverser with a transverse axis because applying a fore-and-aft force is easier than applying a side-to-side force. What went wrong with that idea?
     
  6. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Maintenance.
     
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  7. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    The story, and I'm not sure I believe it, was that he saw his mother using an old mangle (for those of fewer years, a pair of rollers operated by a crank handle through which washed clothes were passed to squeeze out the water) and took the idea from her. But 'mother' stood in front of the mangle, not alongside it.

    A lot of what we would now term 'ergonomics' was tried out on a wooden mock-up of a Britannia cab, and I understand it was also subjected to wind tunnel experiments. Despite this, there was a lot wrong, which is why later Britannias - and others - had a different cab / tender layout than earlier versions.
    Yes, at least partly true. It was supposed to be greased, but the greasing point was not too accessible and was either unknown to the fitters or deliberately ignored.
     
  8. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    On the Britannia cabs, didn't they try rubber seals between the cab and tender to try and reduce draughts, but they didn't work?
     
  9. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    But that relies on there being cascades to allow old stock to be pensioned off. Given the railway was wedded to quite tight alignment of power classification to workload until well after the end of steam, surely they'd have had to invest in new locomotives at some point to allow those cascades?
     
  10. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Not very well. Much of the draught came from below the footplate. This did not have a fall plate as did most other tender locos but the floor extended rearwards almost to the tender front face. Furthermore, there was a bigger gap on the Standards between the rear of the engine and the front of the tender allowing space for the air flow to develop; it was only seven inches on Stanier engines. The gale would emerge through that gap, gathering up coal dust on the way to make cab conditions not only draughty but very dirty. A second problem was that tend front face, which was flat all the way out to the sides. Stanier tenders were narrowed over in inwards curve at this point, so the to air flow was outwards. The Standard tenders flowed the air outwards and inwards. The big, rubber draught excluders were supposed to tackle this part while short fall plates hinged to the tender did go some way to prevent the underfloor entry.
     
  11. Allegheny

    Allegheny New Member

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    One of the disadvantages of this is that with the blocked tubes, the locomotive is carrying a lot of dead weight. Presumably the superheater booster is only of value when the boiler is not correctly proportioned in the first place.
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Part of the furniture Friend

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    I'm a bit confused by this. The cab end of the reverser mechanism is enclosed in a gearbox and is filled with oil. The leadscrew and nut is outside the cab and is easily accessed for greasing. I have come across stiff reversers but this has been on locos freshly overhauled and such a situation is not confined to the Standard classes. Personally, I find the Standard reverser a delight to use, especially on the Standard tank where its angled position makes it equally usable when running forwards or in reverse. The biggest grumble I have is when the gearbox is overfilled with oil and it leaks out and onto the reverser wheel and then onto your hand.
    I've not noticed any increased draughtiness in any of the Class 4's over, say, a Black 5 but I'm only talking of speeds up to 30 mph.
     
  13. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    Steve, you wouldn't be confused if you had tried to do a shunt with a 9F..!!

    As you say, the Standard 4 tank reverser being angled is fairly easy to use, but unfortunately not all other standard locos were the same.

    Andy
     
  14. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    :eek:
     
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  15. Steve

    Steve Part of the furniture Friend

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    I have. Whether it is a 9F or a Class 4, shunting with them can be a bit of a pain due to the number of turns between forward and reverse, I agree. Not much better with a Black 5. That is one advantage of a B1/K1/K4, which have noticeably less turns from forward to reverse but that is their only advantage.
     
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  16. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    Interestingly, the Caprotti 5 73129 has a conventional reverser very similar to a Black 5. The easiest and quickest screw reversers I have ever used have been those fitted to ex GWR 4-6-0 locos.

    Andy
     
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  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    None of this heavy labour on one of Mr Wainwright's locos ;) Finger and thumb suffices for all your reverser action ...

    Tom
     
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  18. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I've little personal experience of the Standards, Steve, but the stiff reverser was a common grumble in 1973, and I have seen several stories on similar lines. And the lack of grease was quoted as the cause.

    The Brit's draughtiness, though, was definite and the rubber bellows, making them look rather like a very big accordion, was supposed to be the answer!
     
  19. 8126

    8126 Member

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    I think you may be misinterpreting the device. The idea isn't a fixed blockage, one implementation tried by David Wardale on SAR 2644 and 3450 was a swinging baffle. At low rates of working the baffle would block the small tubes and cause the gas to preferentially pass through the superheater flues, thus counteracting the loss of superheat temperature when an engine isn't working so hard. At high draught it would swing out the way, allowing all the tubes to be used and maximum evaporation to be developed.

    In practice, the baffles were a bit too keen to swing out the way even at very moderate draughts and no discernible effect was ever measured. I get the impression it wasn't addressed because it wasn't actually causing any problems and it wasn't one of the modifications considered most important, with the SAR locos generally being worked quite hard. Had it been developed to work properly, any possible negative effects on steaming at low power would have become apparent, or not.
     
  20. 8126

    8126 Member

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    Interesting also to note that when the Bulleid Pacifics were rebuilt the reverser design certainly wasn't the Standard item, I seem to remember it was most similar to that used on 46256 and 46257. Of course, R.G. Jarvis was an LMS man, but perhaps the Standard reverser was already slightly unpopular.
     

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