If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

WSRA Trustee Election Hustings

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Robin Moira White, May 26, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Out of interest, what are the practicalities of the vote? By implication, you are saying it is not secret, which makes me think show of hands, but I don't see how that squares with controlling the number of votes each elector has. Or is it done with ballot papers, but no ballot box?

    I suspect that in an atmosphere of mutual distrust, many practices look sinister that in more propitious times would appear benign. For example, on the Bluebell we don't have any kind of overt endorsement of candidates by the existing trustees on the election paperwork. On the other hand, each prospective candidate has to have a proposer and seconder and those names are listed on the ballot paper. If a relative unknown newbie nonetheless secured a nomination from a high-ranking official, that is clearly an endorsement of sorts. Though recent practice in contested elections seems to be that most candidates seem to be able to secure good quality nominations, so I guess it is a moot point in practical terms. But it demonstrates the point about the same practice appearing sinister or benign depending on the temper of the times: I suspect if we had a genuinely divisive election, such nominations would be the source of much speculation.

    Our votes are secret (ballot paper and ballot box) and have to be in person (no proxies or postal votes). That has previously been debated at length on the grounds it potentially disenfranchises members who by virtue of work, illness or distance can't make the AGM, but it does at least mean a vote can't be swayed by an army of invisible proxies!

    Tom
     
  2. Tiffer

    Tiffer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    316
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Its a long time since a major contested election, and I have yet to receive documents/explanation of voting system for this one,as complex as this will be. A show of hands/ use of proxies is used to pass motions, including trustee confirmation, as shown in the articles. item 9.4. In records of the 2011 AGM the following is shown to serve as an example.
    "A vote was now taken from which it became clear that a closer count would be required as there seemed to be similar numbers both for and against the resolution and a large number of abstentions. After two counts it was determined that there were 21 votes in the room for the resolution and 18 votes against the resolution the rest being abstentions. The Secretary confirmed that this was a quorate vote, the quorum being 20, and that with the proxy votes (57 for, 0 against, 24 abstained) XXXXXXXX was duly elected as a trustee of the Association."
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm struggling to see how that works in practical terms for an election.

    You have four vacancies, eleven candidates. Every member apparently has four votes. It's easy to design a single ballot paper, proportional representation system to elect 4 from 11. (For example, number your preferences 1 - 4, count the first preferences to elect the first candidate, then redistribute those ballots according to second preference etc. - there are other systems as well). But with an open ballot and votes for and against by show of hands, how on earth in a crowded room do you ensure no-one votes more than four times? And that is before you consider the proxies and postal votes.

    I hope you've got a robust constitution (literally, but maybe figuratively as well!) and an association secretary who knows it inside out!

    Tom
     
  4. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    1,923
    Likes Received:
    4,237
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The ballot papers (omissions not withstanding) could have been made simpler for the candidate vote. I am told I only have 4 votes, so do I use my 4 votes as "against" votes for those candidates I want to see removed or do I use then as "for" votes. A system more like the local election would have been simpler. You vote "for" the candidates you want and forget about the candidates you don't want to see elected.
     
  5. Tiffer

    Tiffer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    316
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Have just received proxy documents- you may ONLY vote for your four chosen candidates ,the against portion is blanked out.On other resolutions you can vote for or against.How the voting by hand at the AGM will be dealt with is unknown, maybe just as well a kind poster on this thread has booked the hall for more time !
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  6. rodders154

    rodders154 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Messages:
    680
    Likes Received:
    770
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Grumpy old man
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes the Hall is booked until 19.15 to allow plenty of time for debate. Last year the debate was cut short by the chair stateing that they had run out of time even though when questioned the person who I booked the hall off of stated it was booked for another 45 minutes. cant play that card this year

    Rodders
     
  7. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    1,923
    Likes Received:
    4,237
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You are quite right. So all I need to do is cast my votes "for" on the day.

    Now here is another question that perhaps somebody will know the answer to. I have been asked by another member to be their proxy at the meeting. Can somebody describe to me how this works and how I can vote on their behalf and vote myself? Or how I can verify that their proxy wishes have been carried out on the day?
     
  8. Tiffer

    Tiffer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    316
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I have been asked as well-and dont know -yet.Might be the first time we welcome a post from Robin and dont argue with her!If anybody knows, she should.
     
  9. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    5,921
    Likes Received:
    3,827
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    East Grinstead
    From the Articles of Agreement which anyone can download from the website : -

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    5,921
    Likes Received:
    3,827
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    East Grinstead
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Tiffer

    Tiffer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    316
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The delegated proxies are sent to the Association office,as per para 12 in the Articles. I attend the meeting , and am nominated as a proxy- what happens then is not explained.
     
    aldfort likes this.
  12. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    1,923
    Likes Received:
    4,237
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Paul 42 - yes I read that. The articles are all well and good. I'm talking, as Tiffer has also mentioned, about the mechanics of how the proxy's will be managed on the day. My colleague intends to nominate me as a proxy. I am also entitled to vote in my own right. What do I do when the votes are counted (hold up two hands for example)?

    Robin - shine a little light for us if you can?
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Are you sure voting for trustees is by show of hands rather than counting ballot papers? If so, you have bigger problems than just how to use your proxy, since effectively, as far as I can see, the outcome of the election can be dependent on which order the votes are taken. You need a secret ballot to eliminate that possibility, which is best achieved by marked ballot papers.

    Tom
     
  14. Tiffer

    Tiffer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    316
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The previous example indicates a show of hands by those present, and proxies being used if that is to close to call, its all a bit vague, hence our doubts.A number of people are preferring to nominate their own proxy. Certainly I would prefer a secret vote similar to your suggestion, but that is for the future..
     
  15. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,567
    Likes Received:
    5,224
    A little difficult to have the vote based on a show of hands if each member has 4 votes and there are 11 people standing.
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Exactly. I'm racking my brains and I can't think how you could organise such a system without in effect making certain votes worth more than others.

    Note: I am not saying that the incumbent trustees could effectively favour their preferred candidates by choosing the order, since the analysis to do so is massively complex. But what is true is that if you have 11 sequential elections but each voter can only vote in four of them, as the contest goes on, you form a stronger and stronger picture of what the minimum level of support to get elected is likely to be. That means you can effectively "withhold" a vote for a candidate you like but who you see by the other hands is very popular, and use that vote later for a candidate you prefer who had more marginal support.

    Tom
     
  17. Tiffer

    Tiffer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    316
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Precisely why I have raised the issue,the current system for so many will be extraordinarily time consuming and complex-and one WSRA itself must resolve. The only short term solution I see is ALL use the proxy forms, but the count, as in local/ parliamentary elections is witnessed by persons agreeable to all candidates to avoid any disputes then or later.
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We have the following in our rules:

    (My emphasis)

    Though interestingly in our rules the exact method of counting is slightly vague, though in effect it is a secret ballot, one vote for each vacancy and the preferences used to split tied votes. The effect is that if there are X vacancies and Y candidates, the only realistic strategy is to vote for your X favourite candidates, in rank order. Surprises do happen, as this year when a long-standing Trustee was not re-elected.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  19. 5914

    5914 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    520
    The guidance from the Charity Commission on voting is:
    Voting at meetings
    70. Governing documents rarely have details of voting procedures. More usually the charity trustees will have made supplementary rules and regulations to indicate the types of decisions that need to be decided by a vote.
    71. Votes are often first taken on a show of hands, but, particularly in a large meeting, it may not be clear what the outcome actually is. Furthermore, this method gives no recognition to plural voting rights (which may be allowed under the governing document, eg corporate members may have 5 votes; individual members 1 vote). There is a common law right for anyone entitled to vote to demand a poll, and it can be expected that someone will exercise this right where it may be that the outcome of the vote on the show of hands is unrepresentative. A poll is a formal count of votes on a resolution, and would give recognition to plural voting rights where available. The right to demand a poll can normally be limited or excluded by provisions in the governing document of a charity, but not always in the case of a charitable company.
    72. Care should be taken to ensure that the voting methods are appropriate to the meeting. The governing document will often state whether the Chair has a second/casting vote. At trustees' meetings only validly appointed charity trustees have a vote.
    73. The number of votes needed for different types of decisions may vary but is usually a simple majority. The governing document or legislation may provide alternative arrangements: for example, a resolution being made under the provisions of s.268 or s.281 of the 2011 Act must be passed by "a majority of not less than two-thirds of such charity trustees as vote on the resolution" (s.268(2) and s.281(3)). - See more at: http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/publications/cc48.aspx#24

    By a simple reading of this (and not spotting anything to the contrary in the Articles) then the trustees can make a decision on the best way to conduct the vote unless anyone entitled to vote calls for a poll. In my experience a poll is normally carried out either as a secret ballot or (when certain conditions are met) a recorded vote.
     
  20. rodders154

    rodders154 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Messages:
    680
    Likes Received:
    770
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Grumpy old man
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Have you had a reply from David as I believe from others that he has been busy with email today and if so are you able to share it with the group?

    Rodders
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page