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Willesden Duchesses

Discussion in 'Bullhead Memories' started by Tiviot Dale, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I was around and a spotter @ Lancaster for all of this, but sadly have no notes and wasn't taking photographs back then. My school was alongside the WCML between what were Lancaster No.1 and No.2 boxes. It was a paradise for spotters, but woe betide any caught looking out of a classroom window trying to grab a number during lessons. When 6233 trundled past on her way to Ayr I glanced out of the window during an English lesson and was so surprised to see her, not only did I stand up to get a better view, but shouted "LOOK AT THAT." The English master wasn't happy and I was given 100 lines as a punishment!
     
  2. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    A colleague of mine, who travelled on the 1964 RCTS 'Scottish Lowlander' tour and who is also booked on the September 2014 "re-run", is currently attempting to make contact with all surviving railway staff involved in that initial tour of 50 years ago.
    Currently, only one former fireman has been tracked down and we are particularly anxious to ascertain if former Preston men, George Lilley, Joe Johnson, Geoff Williams and Keith Hilton, are still alive ... along with former Kingmoor passed firemen Maclaren and Whiteman.
    To complete the records, we would also like to determine the identities of the crew of 60009 Niddrie West Jct to Carlisle and the Carlisle Upperby crew on 46256 Carlisle to Preston.
    If anyone reading this can provide any leads and/or additional information whatsoever, please do not hesitate to post details.
    46256 26-09-64.jpg
     
  3. grahamjenks

    grahamjenks New Member

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    Posting this on behalf of my Dad, hope this is useful for people:

    In connection with the interesting discussions re. the final workings of the 'Coronation' class locomotives after the end of the Summer 1964 timetable I hope that the following notes are of interest.
    From Ron Herbert (Train controller at Preston) notes of workings in September 1964:-

    Wed 2nd 6241 6P12 0837hrs Warrington to Preston Ribble Sidings

    Fri 4th 6239 3K16 0815hrs Carlisle to Crewe

    Fri 4th 6241 6P12 0837hrs Warrington to Preston Ribble Sidings

    Sat 5th 6254 4A11 1618hrs Carlisle to London Willesden

    Mon 7th 6243 7G02 0508hrs Carlisle to Bushbury

    Tues 8th 6228 4K00 0454hrs Carlisle to Crewe

    Tues 8th 6239 4A08 1511hrs Carlisle to London Broad Street

    Tues 8th 6243 5M27 2250hrs (Mon) Snodland to Bay Horse

    Tues 8th 6243 7K02 2055hrs Carnforth to Crewe

    Wed 9th 6243 5M27 2250hrs (Tues) Snodland to Bay Horse

    Wed 9th 6243 4O27 1750hrs Bay Horse to Snodland

    Wed 9th 6240 4A08 1511hrs Carlisle to London Broad Street

    Wed 9th 6250 1S81 1305hrs London to Perth

    Thurs 10th 6243 5M27 2250hrs (Wed) Snodland to Bay Horse

    Thurs 10th 6243 4O27 1750hrs Bay Horse to Snodland

    Fri 11th 6245 4A11 1618hrs Carlisle to London Willesden

    Chris Coates' 'West Coast Sighting Sheets' show 6240 working train 3L19 north on 05.09 at Preston c. 2040hrs
    i.e. after 'Tiviot Dales' record of the loco working train 1G14 the same day
    + There is a photo dated 07.09 in a Bradford Barton album showing the same loco on an up parcels train at Wigan North Western.
    From the above list 6240 must have worked north again on 08.09 after working the parcels train noted above in order to work train 4A08 on the 09.09.

    I assumed that this info was available via Chris Coates as I know that Ron had made his records available to Chris.

    Also - although sometimes his recorded dates are inconsistent - Derek Cross writing in 'Locomotives Illustrated' about the Stanier Pacifics says that he travelled on the Stranraer to London 'boat train' on 22.09 and awoke to hear the unmistakeable sound of a 'Duchess' climbing out of Carlisle, he assumed that it was 6256. In the same essay, Derek also records that 6235 worked 'an up troop train' in the week following its withdrawal from service.

    (An observation from the note by 'Tiviot Dale' in the 'Scottish Lowlander' thread in 'Whats Going On' - highlighting the publication of the book '1964 The last summer of the Duchesses' and in the descriptrion of the book on the Atkinson Publications website):-
    Both refer to the last 15 working survivors of the class in summer 1964.
    I am sure that there are records/photos of 18 locomotives at work during some part of the summer timetable.
    i.e. all 19 in stock - after the withdrawal of no. 46236 in March - except for no. 46226 'under repair' at Carlisle since summer 1963.

    I hope that this info is of interest and stimulates some more discussion of the last workings of those wonderful machines

    Regards Tony Jenkinson - Morecambe
     
  4. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Graham,

    Please, do thank your dad for asking you to post his lengthy item of information. I have read it with extreme interest. (In fact, as you are now probably aware, Tony has since been directly in touch with me to inform me that you had posted it.)

    Actually, I can confirm that our mutual acquaintance, Ron Herbert, (the one-time 'Mole in Preston Control' had been working very closely with me over much of the earlier part of this year in collating all of this information ... as had Chris Coates, to whom I am particularly grateful for his tireless weeding out of all the ‘Coronation’ sightings from a now absolutely massive stock of information that he possesses today. It is, indeed, a fact that the Duchess list, as it now stands, is the result of the efforts of over 100 separate observers!

    Obviously, all of those September 1964 workings that you appear to have obtained from Ron already constitute a part of the spreadsheet. The reference to a picture in a Bradford Barton book is, however, somewhat curious, as I have a record of No 46240 being seen at Preston, travelling in the opposite direction that same day and which alternative sighting, I feel, logically falls into place as it was then observed on Kingmoor shed the following day, prior to working 4A08 southwards on the 9th.

    I have to add, however, that this was possibly not the only, arguably, incorrect caption I have discovered from information contained in a book caption and, indeed, as I seem to recall, I am pretty sure that one of the previous inaccuracies also emanated from our friend Derek Cross.

    I cannot, however, immediately discount said gentleman’s reference to ‘hearing’ a Duchess hauling an overnight train on 22nd September, but there is no record anywhere else at all to No 46256 working again after it arrived back on Crewe North shed late on the evening of 17th September, and prior to its final railtour commitment.

    Likewise, I sincerely doubt that No 46235 turned a wheel again in steam, following being sent light from Carlisle to Crewe (for restoration in Crewe Works) during the afternoon of 5th September 1964. Perhaps Mr Cross was confusing the loco with No 46237 – which certainly was still seen hard at work on as late as 15th September. (Again, however, I have no record of any specific troop train duties during the whole of the summer period!)

    As regards your suggestion that “there are records/photos of 18 locomotives at work during some part of the summer timetable”, that was, indeed, merly a 'senior moment' on my part and the spreadsheet that I have now amassed, containing around 770 sightings, very clearly confirms the number as being 18. (Apologies for that, and all I can add is that it is a great pity that the figure could not have been 38!)

    As you mentioned yourself and full details are also contained in the new book about to be published, No 46226 – the nineteenth survivor then still ostensibly in traffic, had been stopped at Upperby shed with what was believed to be a cracked frame and had been awaiting repairs for some considerable time. Those repairs were never undertaken and it never worked again.

    1M14 - the Stranraer boat train - was indeed a regular nocturnal Duchess duty between Carlisle and Crewe, (in earlier years, just about every night, I used to lie in bed in my Preston home and hear the train climbing Farington bank … and there was no doubt what was on the front end!), but the last recorded instance of a loco of this class being seen working this train was with No 46237 on 28th August 1964 … so Mr Cross’s alleged sighting would have been another turn that no-one else at all had noticed … and certainly it was unlikely to have occurred at so late a date.

    As I have said previously, both Chris Coates and I would always welcome any further information that might help fill the last few gaps in information that we still need. Therefore, in recognition of all his invaluable efforts, in closing, might I be permitted to give Chris a well-deserved ‘plug’? ……

    WEST COAST SIGHTINGS RECORDS 1948 to 1968

    Who would have thought it was possible to create reports from 50 years ago showing exactly what engines were working and the actual trains they were hauling?

    Well we have done it and now we want to improve them and, with your help, we can!

    This project, started in 2000, aims to identify, as fully as possible, locomotives (steam & diesel) working actual trains on the West Coast Main Line in the BRITISH RAILWAYS era.

    Euston, Birmingham and the North West to Scotland including the main legs (Holyhead, etc.) plus the Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool area which is particularly relevant for the excursion traffic.

    We collate detailed reports of actual engines on actual trains painstakingly researched from railway documentation, chiefly train spotters notebooks. Over 650 enthusiasts have now contributed and on Summer Saturdays, for instance, we have already identified 75% of the locos working trains, but there are still workings to be solved particularly overnight trains.

    Other good sources of information are drivers', firemen and guards' logs and diaries, enginemen’s arrangements or other shed documents, special traffic notices, etc. To progress, we need to view old spotting notebooks or photographic records, the more detailed the better, but just lists of numbers or shed logs ARE also useful, if dated.

    From the data we have collated so far, we have already produced 14 booklets, with at least four others currently being created. As more information becomes available we will expand this range as well as doing update sheets. The sooner we get the information, the sooner we can share it, so please try to help with whatever you may have so we can share this with those who are interested.

    If you would like more information on the project, or samples of the books we have produced, or you can assist with any information, then please e-mail Chris Coates direct at: chris-coates@talktalk.net or Tel. 01204 690122
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  5. Jinty 47500

    Jinty 47500 New Member

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    Interesting reading this thread, bought back memories of the last Duchess I recall seeing which was 46240 City of Coventry on 1E Bletchley Depot as a standby engine for the Royal Train in 1964.
     
  6. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Well, that's one that slipped through my personal 'net' ... although I do have a record of No 46251 'City of Nottingham' on Royal Train standby duty at 2A Rugby shed on 22nd June 1964. Do you have a date for 46240? (Unless the loco was sent back to Willesden shed fairly early on in the day, it couldn't have been the same date, as 'City of Coventry' was then seen working the 18-10 Euston-Liverpool as far as Crewe.)
     
  7. Jinty 47500

    Jinty 47500 New Member

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    Unfortunately I didn't record the date, however, trawling through Ebay recently I stumbled across a picture of her on 1E Bletchley Shed; I did make a bid but lost out!
    Link <http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LMS-BLETC...1333863648?ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:GB:1120>

    In the photograph she was very clean and had Express headlamps on and was facing North, just as she was when I saw her. The photograph states 11/08/1964 which would tie in with my observation. If I recall the Royal Train left Euston early evening on that day.
     
  8. polmadie

    polmadie Member

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    In BR Steaming on the LMS there is a photo of 46240 at 1e Bletcley by C P Stacey on 11.8.64. It is stated that it was on standby duty for the Royal Train. To me it looks like the photo on Ebay.
     
  9. Jinty 47500

    Jinty 47500 New Member

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    I'd like to get a copy of the photograph, do you have an ISBN number for the book please?
     
  10. polmadie

    polmadie Member

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    ISBN 0-946857-58-X
     
  11. Jinty 47500

    Jinty 47500 New Member

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    Thank you.
     
  12. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Having said that, my 1964 Duchess workings spreadsheet (containing all known sightings) does confirm that 'City of Coventry' was seen, in very clean condition, on Bletchley shed during the afternoon of 11th August 1964, having lain out of use for a couple of days prior to that on Willesden depot - presumably for cleaning. The Royal train duty not being specifically mentioned, I initially failed to make the connection!
    A couple of days later, it was back in traffic and there is a picture of it on p6 of the new book, "1964-Last Summer of the Duchesses", heading the down 'Lakes Express' and which, given No 46240's sparkling condition, very clearly must have been taken a day or so after that duty.
     
  13. keith6233

    keith6233 New Member

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    Just received my copy of the last summer of the Duchesses ,If you are only slightly interested this book is superb well done to everybody that supplied the information and pictures from 50 years ago.
     
  14. FlyingScotsman4472

    FlyingScotsman4472 Member

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    A very dirty worked stained Duchess waiting to depart south at Bletchley is No 46235 'City of Birmingham' taken June 1964. Photographer unknown part of my collection taken from an Agfa CT18 35mm slide.

    LMS Princess Coronation No 46235 at Bletchley June 1964 - Copy x1 copy.jpg

    More from my collection can be found at http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page73.htm should anyone be interested thanks,Simon.
     
  15. FlyingScotsman4472

    FlyingScotsman4472 Member

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    Another from my collection taken by the late Brian Noakes, No 46225 'Duchess of Gloucester' waits at Crewe to back onto the Crewe-Carlisle parcels train IS03 26th August 1964. The Duchess is seen in immaculate condition with just three weeks to go before withdrawal. The same working can be found on the front cover of 'The Last Decade of British Railways Steam' by Gavin Morrison a superb book and we hope for a follow on from Gavin very soon.

    LMS N0 46225 at Crewe 12-8-1964.jpg
     
  16. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Yes, all the indications are that the book is being particularly well-received ... and especially so for the remarkably low price asked!
    The word currently going around is that the unofficial launch will take place at a 'certain' annual reunion at a licensed hostelry at Ribblehead during the evening of this coming Saturday, 9th August - 46 years almost to the very day since steam ended on BR!! With some quite remarkable things having occurred since then, it's only a pity that No 46233 will not also be able put in a cameo appearance!
    Not yet available in all that many outlets at the moment, copies can, nevertheless, be ordered direct from the Atkinsons Publications website ... and for details of where to obtain the spreadsheet - which is not available from the publishers - kindly PM this writer.
     
    RayMason likes this.
  17. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    1S03 was actually the Fridays only 19-20 Euston to Perth & Oban (another regular Duchess working in 1964, but which ran in darkness for most of its journey) and the train that you observed was actually 3L14, the 13-40 Crewe to Carlisle parcels ... a fact borne out by reference to the spreadsheet now available.
    By the way, this was 46225's final journey, as it was withdrawn upon arrival back at Upperby shed.
     
  18. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    The quest for information continues .... as, I feel sure, it always will .....

    There are two articles in the current issue of Steam Railway, both relating to the final movements of the two IVATT pacifics, Nos 46256/7 - the one regarding No 46257 'City of Salford' being perhaps the most thought provoking.

    In the “Running Free” feature on pages 80/81, within a 2-page item that, to be perfectly candid, tells us precious little, David Wilcock is attempting to ascertain the circumstances surrounding ‘City of Salford’ being photographed on Newton Heath depot in September 1964.

    As a major aspect of the research for the recently-published commemorative book “1964 - Last Summer of the Duchesses”, a survey had been conducted of all of the known sightings throughout the entire 1964 summer timetable of the remaining 18 working members of the class. The spreadsheet that ensued currently contains a remarkable 800 entries and 'City of Salford's' final turns of duty - that included this exceptionally unusual, and probably unique, visit to a North Manchester depot - are documented, albeit with little additional explanation.

    Ostensibly remaining in traffic until the final week in service of the class – but, apparently, performing little work during the final days, its appearance in Manchester for the ‘Railway Queen’ event coincided with the official last day of the class (46256 excepted, of course.)

    During that final week, on 5th September the 12A Kingmoor loco had worked an unidentified express northwards from Carlisle to Perth (which was probably the overnight sleeper from Euston to Oban (1S03) and then spent the day on Perth shed before returning south with 1M12, the 21-50 to Euston. Being seen on Kingmoor shed a day or so later, there is no evidence that it worked any more turns after that date, but it, somehow, very shortly afterwards, found its way south to Lostock Hall MPD near Preston and where I photographed it inside the shed building on either No 3 or No 4 road, with numberplate, nameplates and motion removed with a sack over its chimney.

    At 10D this was a most unusual occurrence for any withdrawn engine - as the policy at the shed had always been to rapidly banish discarded motive power onto the former coal-stack sidings outside. Although, at that stage, we were not aware of the reasons surrounding this - and, indeed, why the visit had occurred at all - clearly it was to provide cover for the fitting staff whilst they put the loco back into working order and re-fitted the nameplates, etc.

    By 11th September, 46257 had been steamed and continued down the main line the 15 miles to Wigan Springs Branch shed. There is another photograph in existence depicting it stood there in steam, having received a thorough grooming … that even extended to the inside of its cab receiving a coat of sickly pale green paint.

    As we now know, this was all in preparation for a move to Manchester the following day, in order to provide an appropriate presence during the ‘British Railways Queen’ ceremony that appears to have been planned to take place at Victoria station (but not also at Belle Vue, we think!). Presumably 46257 had been selected for this honour, in view of the fact that the, arguably more appropriate contender, No 46246 'City of Manchester' had already been scrapped.

    The young lady who was to be crowned that day was the 15-year old shop assistant Norma Corrigan - the daughter of 9D Newton Heath and one-time 26G Belle Vue driver, Norman (“Nobby”) Corrigan.

    In answer to the specific question placed in the article, it is my belief that at no point did the pacific work a train – with all of its movements being performed merely on a light-engine basis. Departing from Springs Branch, 'City of Salford’ was then sent straight to Newton Heath to be coaled, watered and then turned to face west. This was the only occasion (certainly in the pre-preservation era) that an LMS pacific is known to have appeared on the depot and, as such, must have caused much interest to local footplatemen ... although little, if anything, was ever published in the railway press of the time.

    The “Welcome to Britain’s Railway Queen” headboard was fitted to the smokebox door and, shortly afterwards, it was photographed by the late Jimmy Carter, who, as a 9H Patricroft fireman, always took his camera with him when on duty.

    Then proceeding down Miles Platting bank into Manchester Victoria’s Platform 11 (the long one that connected Victoria to Exchange), according to former Newton Heath fireman, Richard Cort, the driver was actually Nobby Corrigan himself. Whether or not Norma accompanied her father on the footplate, for the short journey, is perhaps something that we will now never discover (but perhaps you know someone who might be able to advise otherwise?). Equally, we do not know if the engine then ran to Belle Vue station to deliver its passenger.

    Immediately following the ceremony, 46257 did run light back to Lostock Hall shed and, this being the day that the class were officially supposed to be withdrawn anyway, it was then placed on one of the former coal-stack roads to have its tender emptied. Some time afterwards, it was towed over to the long-closed Preston shed to join other withdrawn locos in store there.

    Presumably, as Kingmoor depot still ‘owned’ the engine, they must have requested its return to Carlisle, for, very clearly, someone had already made plans for its disposal that did not include any of the English scrapyards! Consequently, on 28th November 1964, it journeyed north again to join other withdrawn 12A/12B class members in the Upperby scrap line. Being hauled dead in a freight train headed by Black 5 No 44934, this was to be the final time that a (BR-owned) Duchess would ascend Shap Fell and Maurice Burns’ picture of it passing through Tebay on its final journey forms a poignant closing image to the 'Last Summer of the Duchesses' book.

    I spent Saturday morning in Manchester Central Library with my daughter, going through all the old issues of the Manchester Evening News and came up with absolutely nothing other than a brief item in an early August '64 issue mentioning Norma’s selection for the honour. Curious, then, that, having sent 46257 south all the way from Kingmoor (and, eventually, all the way back again, BR failed to jump on the bandwagon to obtain a bit of publicity for themselves!

    Having supplied Mr Wilcock with a few more crumbs of information, there still remain some massive gaps in out knowledge - especially in respect of what was such a major event for the residents of Manchester.

    Indeed, author of said piece has since responded directly to me to advise ".........for me there are still one or two unsolved mysteries to be unravelled. I'm not surprised to learn that 46257 (okay - I reluctantly concede that technically it was an Ivatt Pacific', but with Stanier's fingerprints all over it) didn't haul a train that day. As I said in my original piece, the wording on the headboard suggested that it might have been part of a 'welcoming reception' for the new Railway Queen at either Victoria or Exchange. But from the inception of the Railway Employees Carnival in 1925, the actual crowning of the new railway queen was always one of the highlights of the day's programme at Belle Vue. If that was the case in the September 1964 carnival, what was the nature of the 'event' that took place at Victoria/Exchange? Did 'Salford' take young Miss Corrigan on the footplate to Belle Vue station, perhaps?
    With attendances at the Carnival regularly achieving 50,000 - 70,000, even at this late stage of the game, in 2014, there HAS to be railwaymen out there who were there, who can still recall the sequence of events, and tell us what happened at the Victoria/Exchange ceremonial.
    Fairly amazing, I think, that three different sheds had a hand in preparing 46257 for the big day. Even more surprising though that just about nobody in the enthusiast world that I have spoken to, has any knowledge or recollection of the big national railwaymen's carnvial - and yet the last one was held in 1975, just four years before we rolled out 'Steam Railway'. Perhaps it had been run down to a shadow of what it had formerly been. Do you know anyone who keeps back copies of Rail News? That might tell us something."


    Does anyone know any more, I wonder? Someone must remember something .... surely!
     
  19. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Whilst not conversant with the specific Carnival event per se 2 thoughts regarding the locomotive spring to mind : (1) Manchester Victoria / Exchange lies in the City of Salford - coincidence perhaps ? (2) 46257 was the "last of the class" - another coincidence on the final day of Duchesses in action ?
     
  20. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Tomorrow, 12th September 2014, marks the exact date from which all of the remaining members of the Princess Coronation Class were (officially) to be withdrawn.
    How appropriate it is, therefore, that half a century on - to the very day - Shap Fell and Beattock will resound once more to the magnificent sounds of No 46233 still very much hard at work!
    For those who really do recall 1964 as being the Last Summer of the Duchesses, I feel sure that many, such as myself, will be there to witness the occasion.
     

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