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Willesden Duchesses

Discussion in 'Bullhead Memories' started by Tiviot Dale, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Yes, getting very interesting indeed! There certainly do appear still to be some sizeable gaps in our knowledge … and thanks to you guys for assisting as much as you already have done. I haven’t seen the Brian Radford book yet … did it give any further details?

    As regards 12th to 14th September 1964, the following is my current understanding in respect of those locos that worked beyond the BR accountants’ deadline:

    Sat 12th - 46228 - My own last sighting of this loco was on Tues 8th September, when it worked 4K00, 04-54am Carlisle-Crewe fully-fitted freight. Quite how it got to Glasgow on the 11th and then back to its home shed at Crewe really does need elaboration.

    Sat 12th - 46237 - 1A33, 8.40am Carlisle – Euston (Carlisle to Crewe) This would have been the “unidentified green Duchess” and I confirm it was indeed this loco. (I photographed it that day on that train.)

    Sat 12th - 46238 - Although I was photographing all day alongside the WCML, neither I, nor any of my colleagues observed this loco at all. To the best of our knowledge, its final job was on Friday 4th, when it worked 1S83, the last-ever steam-hauled ‘Caledonian’ - at least as far as Carlisle. Any subsequent sightings beyond that date need clarifying.

    Sat 12th - 46244 - 1S53, 9-25am Crewe to Perth (throughout) Two friends travelled on this train from Perth

    Sat 12th - 46245 - 3L09, 10.25am Crewe – Carlisle Parcels (throughout)

    Sat 12th - 46251 - 3K16, 8.15am Carlisle – Crewe Parcels (throughout)

    Sat 12th - 46254 - 3L14, 1.40pm Crewe to Carlisle parcels (throughout)

    Sat 12th - 46257 - Springs Branch MPD to Manchester Victoria for ‘British Railway Queen’ event, then to Preston shed for storage (possibly via Newton Heath)

    Sun 13th - 46244 - 1M12, 9-50pm (Summer SuO) Perth to Euston (Perth to Carlisle)

    Sun 13th - 46237 - 3L09, 6.20am (SuO) Crewe – Carlisle Parcels (throughout)

    Sun 13th - 46245 - 7G02, 5-08am Carlisle to Bescot freight (Carlisle to Crewe)

    Sun 13th - 46255 - 3M04, 6.44pm Aberdeen to Manchester Oldham Rd fish (Perth to Carlisle)

    Regrettably, I suspect that very little further new information is now likely to emerge, but I shall keep digging and will use this thread to report anything else that is discovered. Hope others can do the same!!
     
  2. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    That's quite a list. The move by 46257 to Preston must have been a temporary storeage as it was definitely on 12B along with the other withdrawn ones. I haven't an exact date but I saw & photographed it there, probably early October.
     
  3. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    See also http://www.lostockhallmpd.org.uk/10d.html - about 1/4 way down the page
     
  4. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Can you recall what time of day you photographed it? There were two or three regular parcels diagrams for the Lizzies and a rough idea of the hour would tell me all I need to know.

    From the photograph (which I haven’t seen), once again, is there any way of establishing what time of day it was taken … even to narrow it down to morning or afternoon. If Mr Robey hadn’t got the date wrong in his caption, I would just like to ascertain for sure that 46237 worked the same parcels train on two successive days.

    I photographed 46257 in store on Preston shed on 19th September, so it must have run straight there from the Manchester ‘Railway Queen’ event. (In fact, thinking that it might soon disappear for scrap, that is probably why I went there on that very day.)
     
  5. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    Right, here goes;

    The shot of 46237 near Lambrigg Crossing was obviously a morning one - sun shining from the east onto the fireman's side of the loco. He has another shot published in the book, taken on the same day (13th), of 45531 on 0930 Man Vic to Glasgow Central being piloted by one of Tebay's tanks just south of Grayrigg summit.

    46257 was obviously moved at some time up to Upperby to join the other condemned Coronations - I have the photographs to prove it. I cannot help with the exact date, (Oct/Nov), obviously with being local, I was round Upperby & Kingmoor quite frequently. It was only on one particular occasion that we went to Upperby specifically to photograph the Coronations before they left for scrap. Upperby men weren't happy to lose the 'big lizzies, especially 46257, which they considered as being a 'brand new' locomotive.

    Another point of interest is the Lostock Hall site that you directed me to. 46238 City of Carlisle (should have been preserved!) is shown after working one of the FA cup-tie specials from Carlisle to Preston on 12th Feb '64. I was on that particular train - last time I was hauled by a Coronation in BR service. I don't know if you have an input with the website, but it mentions that 2 specials ran that day to Preston - there was 3; 46238, 45512 & 45545. All three were immaculate having been specially cleaned by Upperby staff for the occasion. I can remember a few of us went into the roundhouse at Upperby on the Friday night to check the roster board to see which train 46238 had been allocated. Obviously that was the one we got onto the following morning.
     
  6. 46223

    46223 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Here goes again (the plot thickens!)
    On Tuesday 15th September 1964 I walked along the shore from Hest Bank station to a foot crossing just north of the water troughs. It was the one and only time I visited that location. It was whilst there that I photographed 6233 being hauled dead to Ayr. I also photographed at that location, albeit from the opposite side of the line, a northbound express hauled by 45531. Bit of a coincidence?
     
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  7. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Yes, it looks like we can disregard the 13th September entry for 46237. Just goes to show that you can't believe everything that you read in books (.... and even I seem to have mis-recorded the date that I saw 6233 being dragged to Ayr!!)
    I wonder if the relevant Railway Observers of the period might be able to shed a little more light on the final movements in September?
     
  8. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    How about this for a find;
    You may recall the Bradford Barton book series, there is one by Derek Cross titled 'London Midland Steam Over Shap'. In it, there is a photograph of 46256 passing Tebay with the 4.35pm Kingmoor Yard (Carlisle) - Maiden Lane (London) perishable goods on, wait for it, the 17th September 1964. Cross doesn't mention the 12th cut-off for the class, but he does say that the locomotive had only 2 weeks more service left.

    Ties in with 46223's observation at 66A some days earlier.
     
  9. 46223

    46223 Part of the furniture Friend

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    That's interesting, what sort of external condition is it in?
     
  10. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Yes, that is correct - the working was actually 4A11, the 16-18 from Carlisle, which I have as running to Willesden. (Its ultimate destination could have been Maiden Lane, I suppose, as that was near Camden on the North London line, but I am unclear why that would be a destination ... unless there was some cattle traffic - which would have been forwarded on to Maiden Lane.)

    I should, perhaps, explain that 46256 had been granted a temporary reprieve for just over a further 3 weeks after the other 15 survivors had been withdrawn, this as a consequence of a prior railtour commitment.

    On 16th September, to ensure that 46256 remained in full working order for the special, it had worked 1S53, the 09-25 Crewe-Perth, returning to Carlisle that night with 3M04, the 18-44 Aberdeen-Manchester fish. The very next afternoon, as mentioned above, it returned to home base with the 4A11 fitted-freight. The following 9 days were spent inside Crewe North shed being prepared for what was to be the swansong of the class – the RCTS special to Carlisle and back of 26th September.

    None of this, however, explains how it got to Polmadie shed on 14th September!! Anyone know?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  11. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    It is not ex-works condition, that's for sure Tender quite grimy - a bit more than the rest of the loco. Someone like Cross would be well aware of the relevance of the 12th for the Coronation class - hard to see him making a mistake re the date, but....
     
  12. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    Well, we've solved one issue - the last Coronation to work a BR normal service was 46256. Quite fitting really.
     
  13. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    Just to clear-up the connection with Maiden Lane, Cross has another two Duchess hauled such trains in the book - he describes that the 'Maiden Lane' was Carlisle's unofficially named goods, conveying foodstuffs and perishables to London's markets. The trains are made up of an assortment of vehicles, cattle wagons, milk tanks, and those white coloured insulated containers that we used to see.
     
  14. 46223

    46223 Part of the furniture Friend

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    In the book 'LM Pacifics, a pictorial tribute', there is a photo of 46241 on the middle road at
    Carlisle station with what is captioned as the 'Broughton - Maiden Lane meat train'. The photo is by Derek Cross and dated August 1964.
    Broughton?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  15. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    Same picture is in this book, caption states that Broughton was at that time the terminus of the truncated Symington to Peebles branch. That particular train of insulated containers was destined for Smithfield Market.
     
  16. 46223

    46223 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thanks for that. A near 50 year mystery solved!
     
  17. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    I have a record of 46241 as being seen on 30th August 1964, heading 4A08, a 12-50pm Carlisle to London Broad Street meat train. Perhaps some insulated containers had been worked separately from Broughton (near Symington and in the middle of nowhere, but very much an agricultural area) to Carlisle and where the train was re-formed to include perishables from other points in Scotland. (This often happened)
    Maiden Lane was on the North London line into Broad Street and that may very well have been the point at which the meat containers were dropped off?
     
  18. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

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    This has been one of the most interesting threads I've seen for a while. Nice to see the Nat Pres community helping each other out with info instead of trying to score points off one another!
     
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  19. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    Kind words, John. I find a subject like this quite interesting. Surprising what can turn up.

    For the info of Tiviot Dale - can I just clear up a typo re the info I gave about the 3 football specials from Carlisle to Preston which included the fabulous 46238. the date was actually the 15th Feb, not the 12th as stated. Seems as though I've got dates coming out of my ears at present!
     
  20. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Actually, I did see all three football specials on 15/03/1964. Having seen the workings listed in the STN beforehand, I photographed them heading south at Brock troughs, so 46203 quite possibly spotted me at the lineside there as he passed by. The locos had been bulled-up beforehand at Upperby shed and went to Lostock Hall shed for servicing upon arrival at Preston. Weather-wise, it wasn't the best of days and all three pictures eventually ended up in the bin, but it was good to be there for the experience! (For the benefit of the usual jugheads ... who always seem to appear from the woodwork every time that the word 'trespass' is mentioned, this was one of the sections of the West Coast main line in the Preston area for which I was in possession of a valid lineside pass at the time!)
    PS As I think is already mentioned on www.LostockHallMPD.org.uk, PNE won 1- nil.
    PPS Back on topic now, please!
     

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