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Willesden Duchesses

Discussion in 'Bullhead Memories' started by Tiviot Dale, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    I am trying to ascertain just how many 'Princess Coronation' pacifics (if any) were still allocated to 1A Willesden MPD at the start of the 1964 Summer Timetable (15th June) and the dates when these were actually transferred north.
    Can anyone who has access to the relevant 'Railway Observers' please help me out?
     
  2. RayMason

    RayMason Member

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    Sorry,I cannot as my logs were destroyed!
    I loved the Willesden Duchesses......were they 46239/40/45 or was 38 in there? City of London in red.........
    Perhaps I shouldn't have posted.......but I simply feel excited at the thought of the last ones in a sea of total dreadfulness,filth,redundancy,sadness and ,then, a sometimes v clean City with nameplate.
    Little did I expect to pass the site of 1A with 3 stanier pacifics 40-50 yrs later!
    I seem to remember that in Aug the last one left on the 11.40 SO Lakes first stop Preston with a Brit on the 11.25 N.Wales
    Locally,it was said to be the final Duchess from Euston and the tears were real as I watched it leave being unable to afford a ticket to Preston. I was 13 and my memory may be rubbish and don't wish to give duff gen but thanks for the question!
     
  3. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    According to David Jenkinson's 'Profile of the Duchesses', 7 of the class went to Willesden.

    46239 / 40 / 43 / 45 / 46 / 47 / 52. Of these 46239 moved to Holyhead in 1963. 46246 / 47 / 52 were withdrawn in 1963.

    So that left just 3 at Willesden in 1964. 46240 / 43 / 45. These survived 'til September of that year.
     
  4. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Sorry, but 46243 was an 8A Edge Hill engine from March 1961 until withdrawal in September 1964.
     
  5. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read in books!

    According to Jenkinson 46243 was at Edge Hill (8A) in 1948. It was at Camden in 1960 and when that shed closed it went to Willesden. He doesn't mention any more moves.

    However, another source also says it moved to Willesden from Camden in 1961 and then gives it's last allocation as 8A Edge Hill, but doesn't give a date.

    When I stir up the old memory cells (the few I've got left) I remember seeing her in Edge Hill shed in the spring of 1964.
     
  6. John Webb

    John Webb Member

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    Re 46243 - It is listed as last shed being Edge Hill and was scrapped in September 1964. (From two tables in "The LMS Pacifics" by J W P Rowledge, David and Charles 1987)
     
  7. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It was scrapped at the Central Wagon Company, Ince near Wigan. It was still in one piece in March 1965 when I photographed it there.

    Wasn't there an attempt to save it for preservation while it was there? I seem to remember reading something about that somewhere.
     
  8. athelney

    athelney Member

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    If it may be of interest I visited 1A on the 4th May 1963 and saw the following on shed 46228 , 46221 46255 ---
    and again when I visited 15th Sept 1963 saw 46239, 46245, 46250, 46225 - although not all allocated there was good to see them on shed .
     
  9. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Yes, Peter Beet tried to buy it, but CWC couldn't oblige due to the no re-sale clause imposed by BR on the original sale. Pity really :(

    Her BR smokebox numberplate and a nameplate are on display in Lancaster City Museum, together with a works grey picture of her in streamlined form.
     
  10. polmadie

    polmadie Well-Known Member

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    Not my photograph.


    [​IMG]
     
  11. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    A quick check of my notes from that period shows 46228 with a 1A shed plate working a Carlisle - Euston via Northampton on 8/01/1964; visits to 1A Willesden revealed (30/05/1964) 46240 / 45; (21/06/1964) 46235 / 39 / 40 / 41 / 45 / 48; (19/07/1964) 46235 / 39 / 40 / 45 whilst on 06/08/1965 46243 worked the "Royal Scot" northwards from Crewe (unable to confirm shed plate). On a visit to Crewe on 31/08/1965 no Duchesses were visible on either Crewe North / South and by December 28 1965 Willesden Steam Depot had less than 10 locomotives whilst the new Willesden Electric Depot was filled with diesel and electric traction.
     
  12. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    1964 surely?
     
  13. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    All of the 16 survivors that survived into the 1964 Summer Timetable, other than 46256, had made their final runs by w/e 13/08/1964, and, as mentioned in a previous post, 46243 was in the Central Wagon Co scrapyard in March 1965, so the chances of it being in a position able to work the ‘Royal Scot’ on 06/08/1965 were pretty remote!
    Did you perchance mean to state the same date in 1964? If so, this is one working that I was not aware of and thank you for bringing it my attention.

    Likewise

    By 31/08/65, none of those surviving 16 Duchesses remained intact!
     
  14. 46236

    46236 Well-Known Member

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    I saw 46243 at central wagons in july 1965 just the firebox and cab remain intact with rear driver and pony truck
     
  15. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    very sad....before my time, but jeez you guys must have been hurting!
     
  16. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    We were:(
     
  17. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Interesting, that, as during the 1964 summer timetable, my records show three instances of Duchesses working the up 'Royal Scot' (1M22), but this appears to have been the only sighting of one on the down working (1S57) and must have been a substitute for a failed EE Type 4. Presumably it came on the train at Crewe (?), but did it work through to Glasgow Central?

    Hopefully, to now get the thread back on-topic, could I take the opportunity to repeat, is there anyone out there who has actual dates, as placed in my original query?:
    I am trying to ascertain just how many 'Princess Coronation' pacifics (if any) were still allocated to 1A Willesden MPD at the start of the 1964 Summer Timetable (15th June) and the dates when these were actually transferred north.
    Can anyone who has access to the relevant 'Railway Observers' please help me out?
     
  18. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Taken from LMS Locomotive Profiles Vol 11 The Coronation Pacifics.
    1A Willesden
    46239 14 September 63-29 August 64
    46240 7 September 63- 29 August 64
    46245 7 September 63- 25 July 64
    No other members of the Class were allocated to Willesden.
    I hope this helps
     
  19. RayMason

    RayMason Member

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    There's hope yet! The old memory MAY have been right then......39/40/45.
    Prob have photos of dreadful quality somewhere.....
    Does anyone really know(not from a book) what Duchess was the last from Euston and was it on a Down Lakes in Aug 64??!!
    The Duchesses may have helped morale at 1A as those not transferring to theNew depot were sacked/left/made redundant.grim times indeed.
    Personally,I feel v happy that Willesden sees more trains and passengers and reopened services than could ever have been predicted in 1964!
     
  20. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    As 25kV electrification proceeded down the WCML towards the capital, due to restricted clearances through some tunnels and bridges, many of which would have been prohibitively expensive to rebuild, the overhead catenary on several sections had to be installed at a lower height than was standard elsewhere (namely to a 13ft 1in loading gauge, instead of the normal 13ft 6ins).
    This effectively meant that, being higher from rail level than was thought to be practically safe, as from 1st September 1964, several steam classes including 'Royal Scots', 'Patriots', 'Jubilees', Fowler 4Fs, ex-LNW 7Fs and the 'Coronation' Pacifics were officially banned from travelling under the wires south of Crewe. Indeed, for some time previously yellow diagonal stripes had started to be painted on the cab-sides of many locomotives that might have been expected to otherwise work south of Crewe.
    For some months now, I have been compiling a listing of all the known ‘Coronation’ workings throughout the 1964 Summer Timetable and, although still far from complete, this does already include some 750 sightings. The section of the WCML south of Crewe is probably the least well-covered, but from what we already know, it would appear that the 1st September deadline was strictly adhered to … at least as far as the Stanier pacifics were concerned.
    The final known working, therefore, does appear to have been - as suggested by Mr Mason - on a down ‘Lakes Express’ in late August. (This was a fairly regular turn for the class until that time.)
    On Saturday, 29th August 1964, No 46240 ‘City of Coventry’ (being transferred to 5A Crewe North shed that very day, or so it would appear) worked 1L27, the 11-coach 11-40am Euston to Workington as far as Crewe. Upon arrival at Crewe, it went on shed for servicing, before being sent north again right through to Perth on 1S81, the following 1-35pm Euston to Perth.
    It returned south (apparently only as far as Carlisle) with the following day’s 1M12, the 9-50pm Perth to Euston. Unless any reader can supply any further information to the contrary, it would appear that, at that point, the loco languished on 12B Upperby shed for six days, before being sent south to Crewe on 5th September, with 1G14, the 111-coach 8-20am Carlisle to Birmingham New Street.
    Not being aware at the time that this was its final working of all, I was particularly fortunate in being able to photograph it storming out of Preston and up Farington Bank. I was even more fortunate in being able to find the £3.7s.6d fare for a ticket on the “Scottish Lowlander” three weeks later and, with 46256 at the head over Shap, what an unforgettable experience that proved to be! As O S Nock once said, “There are not enough superlatives in the English language to describe a Princess Coronation locomotive in full cry. We shall never see their like again”. Fortunately that has transpired not to be the case!
     

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