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WHR/FR news

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by Sheff, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. Baldopeter

    Baldopeter New Member

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    It is the gricers that seem to think lempors or Porta have all the answers.

    The general consensus at the Lodge at the moment is the most important thing is to have, and keep a well a maintained locomotive. The fuel efficiency of Linda at the moment is impressive. Simple water treatment avoids excessive boiler washouts. 143 has also been turned out without a lempor, it is just not worth the extra costs. The exhaust beat is just a bonus.

    Regards

    Peter
     
  2. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

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    What are the disadvantages of the Lempor in terms of maintanance? I do not mean to criticise the Lodge's consensus but would be interested to learn more about this.
     
  3. Baldopeter

    Baldopeter New Member

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    Nothing, I said it was not worth the extra cost, parts on 87 were a very expensive fabrications.

    Regards

    Peter
     
  4. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    So it's the initial cost that's the issue? I thought from the above that Linda had had the Lempor removed though? Was the Lempor life expired?
     
  5. meeee

    meeee Member

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    They are expensive and complicated things to fabricate and the saving in fuel is not really big enough to offset this. The initial results from tests carried out on Merddin Emrys seemed to show a multi-jet exhaust having little advantage over a more traditional blastpipe anyway. In fact it seems to be the shape of the chimney that gives the biggest improvement.

    Both the Lempor on Linda and the Kylachap on Blanche were life expired and not replaced. They both used to regularly get choked up with carbon over time. Great for steaming but getting to 20mph becomes difficult.

    Linda and Blanche don't seem to have suffered any loss of performance and in fact are a lot more free running now. They have also both benefited from more accurate valve setting, it will be interesting to compare them now they are in top condition.

    Tim
     
  6. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Tim, interesting stuff. Just a thought - did you do a comparison after the revertion to traditional blast arragements, but before the valve tuning? (just to separate the influnces of both). Iain
     
  7. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Not on Linda as one of the eccentrics was found to be out of position so was moved among a whole host of other things that were wrong with the running gear. The details of the previous setup were not recorded before it was dismantled as well. Linda used to be a bit of a battle but the general consensus is it now goes like a rocket.

    A comparison could be made with Blanche but it has done very little running since the valve setting as it was stopped for the tender to be overhauled and is now being repainted. I'm sure it will see plenty of use over the next few months though.

    Tim
     
  8. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Tim, just the research engineer in me looking to learn :)
     
  9. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    My previous comments were prompted by the thought that the sort of chuffing noises produced were about the least important consideration in issues of this kind.

    Of course one must beware of people riding hobby horses in favour of anything but also those riding the "not invented here" kind have to be watched for as well.

    A glance at Martyn Bane's website might be of interest on this topic.
     
  10. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

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    I meant the removal of the existing Lempor on Linda - but others have addressed that question. Thanks for all replies.
     
  11. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Its amazing the some people still question the value of kylchap/kylpor/lempor exhausts, but I suppose this is preservation and not innovation. It's not a gricer thing, just check out why the BR (E) substituted Kylchaps for single exhauts on the A4's and A3's in the late 50's and why Dean Goods draughting or LMS double chimneys didn't cut it. They saved fuel as well as giving a power increase. (So the old canard that drivers just worked the engine harder because of the soft exhaust cannot be the whole explanation - if the system wasn't more efficient it'd have burnt more fuel).

    Whether this applies to short runs such as the Festiniog is of course a different issue.
     
  12. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

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    In their time sundry narrow gauge railways have tried various exhausts, remember the Giesel ejector fitted to TR No. 4? I suspect there may be issues with smokebox volume / velocity / oil-firing which alters the effect on these smaller locos. My experience with Kylchaps on the main line shows they are worth it but getting the spark-arrestor to work efficiently can be a challenge!

    Foxy
     
  13. 45669

    45669 Member

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  14. AndrewT

    AndrewT New Member

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    And to see what Ricket looks like today (or at least, last summer), check out Coast on BBC2 at 2100 this Sunday.

    Trail here: http://www.festrail.co.uk/content/publish/frnews/FR_on_TV_Coast.shtml

    Nick Crane enjoyed his footplate ride so much, he asked if he could have another go later the same day. Who are we to refuse?

    Some class helicopter shots too, done a couple of months after the original filming.
     
  15. ragl

    ragl Member

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    At last!! those eminent, time served, over qualified Locomotive Engineers Lemaitre & Porta - 'spose we can throw Gresley & Chapelon in as well while we're at it - are shown up to be what they always were - overblown know alls and underachievers!!

    Must take someone really special to upstage them.

    Thank the Lord that an appropriate exhaust beat has been "engineered" into Linda; the "gricers" will be ooohing themselves silly when they hear it chuffing past on it's way to BF!!

    Cheers

    Alan
     
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  16. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

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    Yeah! Losers , the whole lot of them, and Churchward, Holcroft, du Bousquet, de Glehn, Maunsell, Stanier, Raven, Hawksworth, oh and while we're at it Gooch and Stephenson! :loco:

    Foxy
     
  17. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

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    However it does seem to be a common theme in the history of locos with Porta inspired modifications that they are often removed after the original design engineer has moved on. Why is that?
     
  18. Hunslets Finest

    Hunslets Finest New Member

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    Wow...that is a sight I never thought I would see. Well done to all the volunteers involved, great job. Shame she doesn't run with the bucket all the time.

    Any chance of a tender less run or two at the Vintage Weekend on the slate wagons? If so I will book the hotel now!
     
  19. ragl

    ragl Member

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    Which is a fair question.
    The steam locomotive is a relatively simple machine; dependent upon good design & when new, they tend to run fairly efficiently given decent fuel and water. Being simple, steam locos don't need much engineering 'nous' to operate & continue to run even when worn out & with components poorly maintained such as eccentrics out of phase and inaccurate valve timing - allow that on a diesel and it stops. Of course, the efficiency curve of such a steam loco in poor condition will fall of a cliff, but it does keep going. The history of the steam loco has shown that once it's value to it's operators is diminished or the money runs out for maintenance - witness the Festiniog Railway in the 1930's - engines can become very rough; they may be simple, but they still need some care & attention!!.

    Locos modified by Porta - & Wardale - were, shall we say, a little less simple than the standard machine, they were 'tuned' engines and to keep them in a constant state of tune required a bit more work than the standard engine on the next track - plus a modicum of engineering 'nous', a commodity that can be sadly lacking amongst some loco artisans. So what happened to these engines? After the departure of the Engineer & his watchful eye, parts are broken & not replaced, blast-pipes coke up, maintenance standards drop and anything that meant 'extra' work was neglected - remember, steam locos require a lot of physical graft to keep them in tip-top condition.

    However, the main modification that Porta & Wardale implemented was a very efficient exhaust & this has always been retained, to my knowledge, on all of their modified engines. In fact, I'm sure that we are all familiar with lots of other locos very successfully modified with Kylpor/Lempor/Lemprex exhausts, 'Duke of Gloucester', the A4s, A1s, NCB 'Austerites' and the Welshpool engines spring to mind - that's just in this country. I may be wrong, but I believe that it is policy on the W & L to install a modified Porta derived exhaust on all of their engines. Of course any modifications cost money and a multi-jet blast-pipe will cost more than a 'normal' pipe, but in the final bill for any engine - which always seems to be in the £6-figure region these days - that cost must be trifling.

    Anyone who has studied Porta's work would immediately see that he was an 'Engineer' who had an extraordinary grasp of thermodynamics and how to apply that to dramatically improve the efficiency of the steam locomotive. He may have been born too late to have an effect on railway policy Worldwide, but he worked until he died to pursue the goal of improving the basic design of the steam loco. Porta's work has been has been derided by many in the past, why? perhaps they struggled with what can be quite complicated concepts, bearing in mind that the steam loco is basically a simple machine that was mainly in the care of, we shall be kind - 'artisans'.

    As a side question, is the 'simple water treatment' on the FR similar to the very successful system developed by Porta?

    Which brings me to 'Linda'. Boston Lodge has achieved another magnificent restoration with this engine, restoring features that go some way to achieving a more authentic profile. From foregoing posts in this thread, it is obvious to me that any new improvement in the performance of 'Linda' is down to basic attention to detail & correcting faults - e.g. the eccentric out of position, coked-up blast-pipe - that have stultified performance in the past. of course, the reasoning behind the removal of the Lempor may just be a desire to achieve a more authentic loco, a commendable policy as we are in the 'preservation' game. Will 'Linda' be less powerful/efficient? I, for one don't care, as I'm sure that given the quality of the recent work 'she' will be more reliable and up to the job , which, as has been mentioned in a previous post are key objectives for operation on a pleasure railway. We are just witnessing another phase in the - never dull & always interesting - careers of the Penrhyn 'Ladies'.

    Apologies for the lengthy post, but this 'Gricer' felt that your question required a considered reply.

    Cheers

    Alan
     
  20. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

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    No apologies necessary - a very interesting reply and I agree Linda looks magnificent. I suspected the reasons for de-Porta-ising certain locos might well be along the lines you suggested and it is fair enough for owners and operators to make practical decisions of this sort. However I would love to see one of the later (or rebuilt) NCB Austerities restored with the authentic GPCS/Lempor installation preserved intact for its own historical value. I guess I'll just have to save up and buy one!
     

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