If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Where is the missing S160?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by PolSteam, Mar 1, 2015.

  1. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    http://www.uklocos.com/final-results.asp?action=display&Id=4909
    That'll be the set that was at Kirkby then.
     
  2. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    OK. that leaves a set of frames, boiler, 1 cylinder block and tender frames.
     
  3. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  4. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Looks like Ian has lost track of where and what toys he had. That picture at Ruddington is Hungarian. 100%
     
  5. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  6. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Alco 70610 (assumed) - Ruddington, GCR (N) - 7 October 2012 is Ex PKP so your assumption is wrong, but it looks like Ian has nicked the block! You can clearly see the red lead on the frames, which are clean and only lightly rusty.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But he's sold you 3 Hungarian blocks. The big giveaway on those frames is the PKP lamp brackets, for the big electric lamps.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  8. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    OK, to recap, we have 3 Hungarian engines accounted for:
    1631 Alco 70284 Hungary MÁV 411.388 Great Central Railway (Nottingham)
    2364 Baldwin 69621 Hungary MÁV 411.xxx Great Central Railway (Nottingham) Chassis only, spares for 1631
    6046 Baldwin 72080 Hungary MÁV 411.144 Churnet Valley Railway

    Now 3 Polish
    2253 Baldwin 69496 Poland PKP Tr.203.288 NYMR- loaned to National Railway Museum until 2015.
    5820 Lima 8758 Poland PKP Tr.203.474 Keighley and Worth Valley Railway
    Ex PKP Tr203-162 Great Central Railway (Nottingham) spares for 1631

    And these two:
    3278 Baldwin 70340 Italy FS 736.073; Greece SEK Θγ575 Tyseley previously named #701 Franklin D. Roosevelt

    5197 Lima 8856 China Funshum Industrial Railway, #KD6.463 Churnet Valley Railway

    And this one is missing now:
    2138 Alco 70620 Hungary MÁV 411.380
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  9. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  10. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Your frames are Tr203-162, from that you should be able to find it's history. The picture below is what was left after 288 was restored at ZNTK OLESNICA.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. ChrisBridges

    ChrisBridges New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    22
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Hi all,
    Just in case people are interested here are some pictures at Ruddington from last November.
    [​IMG]
    DSCF8154 by chris bridges2, on Flickr
    [​IMG]
    Thanks Chris
     
  12. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Looks a bit like Zebiec yard.

    Silly question. Why do you guys need 2 sets of frames and blocks as spares for one engine? It looks like one set of frames has been stripped, the Polish ones are as was but no block or wheels. Looks like Ian has picked all the best bits, and sold you guys the remaining bits. Have you got any motion to make 1 engine?
     
  13. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    727
  14. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    At the moment I don't know who owns what, but there is a heck of a lot of bits lying around somewhere. The mix up is in the Hungarian locos and the one Polish. If I've got it right 4 s160's have steamed, and 4 are either spares or under restoration. Is that right?
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I make it five. The first was 5820 on the KWVR, followed by 3278 on the MHR, 2253 on the NYMR, 5197 and finally 6046, both on the CVR.
     
  16. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think 5 have steamed - 2253 NYMR, 3278 Tyseley, 5197 Churnet Valley Railway, 5820 Keighley and Worth Valley Railway, 6046 Churnet Valley Railway

    This leaves just the 3 at Ruddington to steam - 1631, 2364 and Tr203-162 (anyone know it's original USATC no?), assuming there are enough boilers, cylinders, motion, tenders etc. to make 3 complete locos and the owner(s) wanted to go down that route.

    Keith
     
  17. PolSteam

    PolSteam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, owner of Wickham type 17a TP57P
    Location:
    Fleet, Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    COMPLETE ENGINES:

    2253 Baldwin 69496 Poland PKP Tr.203.288 NYMR- loaned to National Railway Museum until 2015.

    3278 Baldwin 70340 Italy FS 736.073; Greece SEK Θγ575 Tyseley previously named #701 Franklin D. Roosevelt

    5197 Lima 8856 China Funshum Industrial Railway, #KD6.463 Churnet Valley Railway

    5820 Lima 8758 Poland PKP Tr.203.474 Keighley and Worth Valley Railway

    6046 Baldwin 72080 Hungary MÁV 411.144 Churnet Valley Railway


    RUDDINGTON:

    1631 Alco 70284 Hungary MÁV 411.388 Great Central Railway (Nottingham)

    2364 Baldwin 69621 Hungary MÁV 411.xxx Great Central Railway (Nottingham) Chassis only, spares for 1631

    Ex PKP Tr203-162 Great Central Railway (Nottingham) spares for 1631

    MISSING:
    2138 Alco 70620 Hungary MÁV 411.380

    Where did the info come from about 2138? I was at the ELR when the engines arrived from Hungary, and there was 3. Did he buy another engine later?
     
  18. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Doing a little digging around on the net and came up with some info:

    From this forum nearly 4 years ago:

    A brief chronological history of each locomotive present is as follows:-

    USATC No1631 Alco No 70284 1942
    Commissioned Cowlairs. Stored Penrhos, South Wales
    Sent to France 1944 worked from Cherbourg 1944-45
    Allocated SNCF April 1945
    Out of SNCF service by Dec 1946
    Date sent to Hungary not known

    USATC No2138 Alco No 70620 1943
    Docked at Hull 14th May 1943 aboard the “Ralph Waldo Emerson”
    On LNER 06/43
    Sent to GWR 07/43
    Sent to France 1944 worked from Cherbourg 1944-45
    Allocated to SNCF April 1945
    Date sent to Hungary not known. Numbered MAV 411.380

    USATC No2364 Baldwin No 69621 1943
    Allocated to Stratford 09/43
    Handed over to US army 09/44
    Date sent to France not known
    Date sent to Hungary not known. Numbered MAV 411.xxx

    Source: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/usa-s-160.30981/#post-413517


    From the Facebook page for the restoration of 1631:

    The loco is complete other than the union links and the eccentric rods and perishable parts, pipework, sheet metalwork etc. The tender tank is not pretty, but the sides and back are salvagable, new bottom and coal space required. The tender chassis had significant work done at Rileys, and though it needs to be revisited, is basically good.

    The substantial remains of 2138 and 2364 are all at Ruddington, bought together as a strategic source of spares for 1631. Anything is possible in terms of reconstruction, subject to the will to do so, time and money, little is required to complete 1631 as a 'kit of bits' more so for the others but they are collected and conserved maintaining the possibility that as a project they might be tackled in the future.

    Source: https://www.facebook.com/pages/1631-GCRN-S160-Restoration-news-page/596620833783064


    So it would seem that Tr203-162 is the missing loco, or perhaps there is an identity mix up somewhere?



    I also found this info which seems to cast some doubt on the true identity of 2253:

    Tomi wrote:Hello,

    I'm a steam enthusiast from Poland and I've got some questions regarding the 2253. Hope you will be able to clarify a thing or two for me.
    First of all, many English sites list the 2253 as the former Tr203-208 locomotive. I believe this PKP number is incorrect, as according to several sources it was the 288 that had been preserved. Tr203-288 was removed from the PKP inventory on October 28, 1980 as the last Tr203 out of 500. Its last shed was Zbaszynek and the loco remained there for a few years until it was taken to Nowe Skalmierzyce where the PKP used to have a scrapping company. As there was some obvious interest in the locomotive from foreign enthusiasts, it was not scrapped and remained there until the 1990's. It was then taken to the Olesnica workshops, fully overhauled and finally shipped to NYMR. But, for some reason, it received the USATC 2253 number there which, according to several original sources, belonged to another loco. Tr203-288 was a former USATC 2089 locomotive, built by ALCo in 1943, factory No. 70571. At the time of being removed from the inventory, it still had the original boiler of the same number as the frame. USATC 2253 was in fact the next Tr203 in the line - the 289, built in 1943 by Baldwin with the factory No. 69496. Accidentally, it was another Zbaszynek-based loco that was removed from the inventory in 1980. So here goes the first question - why 2253 and not 2089? There is a slim chance that 288 and 289 were swapped before one of them went to Nowe Skalmierzyce (they could've gone both there just as well). Were there any plates on the loco at the time it went to Olesnica? At least one should have been, given that it hadn't been stolen by some "collectors".

    I also wonder what the actual boiler number of the 2253 is and whether the original PKP documents of the loco (locomotive and boiler book) were passed on to the buyer - if so, what numbers are in them? I hope the loco was not given the false identity by the Olesnica crew, but you never know!

    And one more question - for how long has the loco been out of use?

    With best regards,
    Tomislaw Czarnecki
    http://www.holdys.pl/tomi

    Source: http://nymrunofficialforum.createforumhosting.com/s160-t1725-160.html

    2253 carries a worksplate showing Baldwin 69496/1943, but also carries a brass plate on her cab stating that she was Polish TR208-288 (yes 208-288)


    All very confusing!

    Keith
     
  19. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    According to other sources (wiki and holdys), 2 pkp s160's are in the UK, 5820 and 2253.

    Wiki says the 3 GC ones are ex MAV.

    According to a German forum tr203-162 left Poland incomplete in 1994.

    I wouldn't trust Polush numbering, sheds when repairing locos put a good one together and whatever number is on the cab is how it goes out.
    There are currently 3 locos with the number ol49-69... I know I saw them all on the same weekend, one of them hauled my train, one has a green cab, and number on the smoke box, another was dumped at Gnieszno (was operational back in 2002) and the other at Wolstyn.

    If it helps tr203-286 was 2255, if the numbering was decreasing, and was a sequential batch then 2253 could be tr203- 286, or explain the method behind the number, admittedly the book I'm looking at shows numbering was all over the place (and goes on to say 100 went missing from pkp inventory and accuses russia of taking them).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
  20. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    So, bearing in mind that USATC locos seemed to have their worksplates on the smokebox (which could be easily transferred to a different loco at overhaul), how are the locos actually identified? It would appear that the smokebox and cab numbers cannot be relied on. Did ALCO, Baldwin and Lima stamp the frames/other parts?

    Keith
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015

Share This Page