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What Ifs, and Locos that never were.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Jimc, Feb 27, 2015.

  1. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    That's the one! It's Ian Mellors' model I posted a pic of further up the page. It's pretty awesome, I've seen another 00 one but it didn't follow the original design quite so closely.
    More pics of Ian's one:
    blogentry-6717-0-10567500-1331626492_thumb.jpg
    blogentry-6717-0-60357300-1309690267_thumb.jpg

    This one is an oldie but I updated it slightly as some bits were bugging me, added the streamlined 4-6-4 and converted the blue one to have an Ivatt cab and front end.

    1 - Stanier's Princess Coronation
    2 - Ivatt's final iteration of the 4-6-2
    3 - 'What if Ivatt used the Coronation boiler with a 2 cylinder layout and 4 smaller driving wheels for fast freight?'
    4 - Streamlined 4-6-4 - this was described by E.S. Cox along with a basic drawing, the idea was to compete with internal air travel. Princess Royal-sized wheels to allow the largest boiler possible, large firebox with mechanical stoker, roller bearings, large tender, streamlining retained
    5 - Almost a de-streamlined version of the above
    6 - 'What if we took the large boiler, firebox, mechanical stoker etc and put it on the 2-cylinder chassis?'

    Ivatts-magnum-opus-1c.jpg
     
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  2. Hicks19862

    Hicks19862 Member

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    That Standard 2-8-2 is beautiful. Better looking than a 9F in my opinion.
     
  3. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    Swindon, the 1930s. Late at night, the telephone in the drawing office rings....

    "Bonsoir Charles, c'est Andre. J'ai des idées pour votre locomotive 'King'..."
    GWR-chapelonstyle-1d.jpg

    (steam chests enlarged, larger low pressure inside cylinders, double kylchap chimney, larger boiler, ACFI gear, 4-8-0 chassis extension, enlarged and smoothed steam feed pipes, cut down safety valve bonnet, outside walschaerts)

    Back in the real world...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Crikey, I never imagined it was possible to start with the ugly bitsa hotchpotch of a “King” and make it even uglier, but somehow you have succeeded! ;)

    Tom
     
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  5. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    Someone on another thread congratulated me on the Crosti 5MT, calling it the ugliest loco on the thread, so I had to raise my targets...
     
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  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Looking at that 4-6-4s enormous firebox, I wonder what ASLEF would have had to say about the proposal? :)
     
  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Demanded extra payment for firemen for having to work with a mechanical stoker...
     
  8. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    it was to be fitted with a mechanical stoker ---so -- not much

    why anyone would propose a 2-8-2 for freight is beyond me . Gresleys P1 was too big for the job , and this would have been also .

    even the BR9 was too big for most of the work on offer .
     
  9. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    Here's an excerpt from 'Locomotive Panorama' if you are interested in the 4-6-4, don't want to post all of it due to copyright, just a taste :)
    nhW4EfaFQwCaIbgabvUz2A_thumb_c638.jpg
    oYXYsZy+RLy1tD3yVk6xjg_thumb_c633.jpg
     
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  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Well, that's me told! :)
    In the case of the P1, colour me equally baffled. The most cursory glance at the LNER's capacity to cope with the enormous loads these bruisers were capable of shifting must have revealed the level of investment needed to readily handle traffic on that scale across the wider network. Pure speculation on my part, but perhaps HNG's well documented interest in US railroading practices extended to more cost effective freight operations?

    For the LMSR proposals, I suspect the dates might give some clue. The rationale seems likely based on (what proved to be) overly optimistic traffic forecasts, based in turn on (equally overly optimistic) treasury forecasts. How unlike today's computerised financial forecasting!

    I recently enquired, of those more knowledgable than I, on government funding for capital projects during the Big4 era and a piece of relevant legislation from the late 1920s surfaced. I'm none too well versed on the lead times involved in developing a mainline loco from the rails up, but suspect, for other than an 'existing design update' we're talking in terms of tens of months (i.e. a lowish number of years).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  11. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    From what I have gathered over the years as this topic comes and goes, you are right. The P1s seem to have been designed to handle huge trains, but the network wasn't built to handle such large trains, nor did the traffic outstrip the existing trains.
    If traffic had continued to grow and goods trains were sped up/enlarged to cope, then such designs may have seemed like the correct stepping stone. In the end, of course, the 9Fs could handle pretty much anything and go almost anywhere on the main line.
     
  12. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I went hunting for the dates for the Kings - easiest for me to find. Pole's book suggests the genesis of the design was some time in 1926, but no more detail than that. Most King drawings at the NRM are dated Jan, Feb and Mar 1927. I didn't spot any earlier ones. The first loco was outshopped in June. I haven't found anything in GW loco Cttee minutes about when construction was approved - perhaps it wasn't done on renewals. The King was something of a rushed job though. Holcroft tells us the 4300 design was kicked off at some time in 1910, and the first of those was outshopped June 1911, but this was very much a kit of parts job with relatively few new drawings.
    Cox tells us the Fowler Pacific was cancelled in November 1926, and I believe the Royal Scots came out in September 1927, but again these were built fairly urgently.
     
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  13. 61648

    61648 Member

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    Not sure I'd agree with better looking than a 9F but the 8MT is certainly a very handsome machine
     
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  14. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    A very facinating thread this one. :) Thanks to Corbs for his great illustrations! I really like the model of the 2-8-2 no.46400 and 2-8-4 no.4655!:Happy:

    I wonder if it ever was any proposal for an articulated steam locomotive in the UK? A "british version" of the german BR 53 perhaps?

    Knut:)
     
  15. D1002

    D1002 Resident of Nat Pres

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    More than just a proposal, the LMS Beyer Garratts?
    E1BE5BC3-1D4C-4808-A8F7-2D2E228C1DB6.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  16. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the great photo D1002!
    I`m aware about the Beyer Garrats.:) I was thinking about a mallet type articulated (I should probably specified that)
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not a Mallet, but there were the Archibald Sturrock locos which had essentially an additional engine in the tender, fed from the locomotive boiler. The idea was to use the weight of the tender for adhesion; as I understand, the idea foundered not for technical reasons, but because agreement couldn't be reached with the crews as to whether extra pay was required for essentially having to prepare and drive two engines.

    Not many illustrations online, but there is a contemporary diagram of the tender and description here:

    https://www.diagram3d.com/index.php?route=product/product/download&download_id=33

    Tom
     
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  18. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    D1002 has kindly posted a photo of the LMS Garratt design. According to a book by Mr ES Cox, the LMS did consider alternative articulated options, including an 0-6-6-0 Mallet, but the Garratt was preferred. I did recently see this Mallet - at a model railway exhibition.

    I was at first confused by your reference to German BR53, as I thought this class group only covered vintage 0-6-0 goods engines inherited by the Reichsbahn, such as Prussian G3:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_G_3

    But I now discover that Borsig made a proposal during WW2 for a 2-6-8-0 Mallet, which was to take over the BR53 designation. The engine seems to have been built only in HO-scale. I'm always learning things on this forum!
     
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  19. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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  20. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    What would Colonel Stephens have done? HS2 sorted
     

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