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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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    That was not within our gift. What we were standing for was for the membership to be given the opportunity to discuss options and then vote on possible ways forward. This was made very clear at the time.

    What details can you give on the Washford proposal ? What offer has been made ?
     
  2. rodders154

    rodders154 Member

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    I also remember that Robin was in favour of the removal of the WSR Cards from Messrs Peter Chidzey and the rest of the 6. She even reported that PC was working on the QB without a card.[/QUOTE]
     
  3. 62440

    62440 New Member

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    I read your post with interest. Regarding your penultimate paragraph, are there any mechanisms or safeguards to ensure the Trustees as a body continue to perform as required?
     
  4. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    What I was meaning was that, judging by this thread, while there was agreement on the broad thrust of the Bailey Plan, there was considerable disagreement about its details.
    Is it really only two? That's heartening to hear.
     
  5. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    Is this correct?
     
  6. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Is this correct?[/QUOTE]
    I tend to not place to much in the postings of some people who clearly are not just PLC apologist's , but also, I believe hold personal grudges again Robin White,
    What Robin , may have supported bears no impact, on what is happening to the railway today, , she has not been a member of the PLC, for many years, so has no impact on decisions made by the currant board, the viability of the line rests solely on the heads of those with in the PLC at the moment, And i question their suitability to hold such important positions, because judged on their actions, and the impact , of those actions, i don't have any confidence they can turn the fortunes round, What may be going on elsewhere with in the WSR, isn't going to change the future for the railway, only the plc has the power to implement change, in what ever way that is, It is they, and they alone who can.
     
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  7. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    I never said that forum members shouldn't come up with ideas, I would wholeheartedly welcome it.
    I questioned why anyone would submit those ideas to a WSHRT trustee associated with the appalling witch-hunt against the previous reformers.
     
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  8. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    [/QUOTE]

    Tell us Rodney. Do you support the Bailey reforms?

    If not, why not?

    Robin
     
  9. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Behaviours and integrity can also be judged on whether individuals have indulged in public slanging matches on discussion forums.

    Running a large heritage railway requires compromise, putting disagreements aside, working with others etc etc. There are few comments on here from the WSR protagonists which suggest that they have these skills.
     
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  10. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Is it me? but its like the usual suspects, come on here to just play whack a mole , with Robin playing the mole, As soon as she pops her head up, they have to try to bash her down, as for public slanging matches, Someone in Robin's profession, i would think has to be very careful about how their image is portrayed as being an law professional public slanging matches will do damage to their professional standing, So far i haven't seen any posting from Robin, that i would describe as being a slanging match, i find most of her posts are in the form of questions, put to people who, can't, or won't give an answer to them, which i find, says more about the honesty of those the questions are aimed at.
     
  11. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Very few people posting on here have any desire whatsoever to be running a large heritage railway. There are other reasons for people pointing out what is wrong with the management of the WSR than wanting to be that management, hard though you may find that to believe. Indeed, two of the posters on here that people have suggested might take on that role, two people who, in stark contrast to those supporting the current Plc board, have actually displayed their ability to put disagreements aside, compromise and work with others, have publicly declined that offer.
     
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  12. ikcdab

    ikcdab Member Friend

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    Actually I didn't ask for ideas to be sent to me. Far from it. I suggested that this forum could develop a workable plan itself. JB gave an outcome, but not a detailed plan to get there. For example, how would the plc shareholders and WSRA members be absorbed into the new charity and would their benefits be maintained? Would it be necessary to equalise a shareholder with 50 shares against one with 100000, and if so how? Would there be trustee positions reserved for bodies such as SCC? Etc etc. The devil IS in these details and nothing can happen until the plan is developed. Why don't members of this forum demonstrate what working together is all about and come up with a plan between yourselves. Once a plan such as this exists in the public domain, you might get some traction.
    Ian C
     
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  13. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Well just for the record, I never said that you did ask for the ideas.
    Let's turn that around Ian, why don't members of the WSR (PLC, associated groups, WSRA, WSHRT) demonstrate what working together is all about and come up with a plan between yourselves.
    Oh that's right you're all too busy arguing with each other, evicting museums, playing games with the finances and persecuting volunteers who had the gall to actually try to reform things.
    Shame on you all.
     
  14. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Maybe, but that’s a rather different point.

    Where the usual mechanisms are removed - staff policies for example - formally lodged grievances about unconscionable behaviour are ignored and internal processes are used as instruments of oppression, it should be no surprise that legitimate concerns find expression elsewhere.

    Even the most oppressive one-party states spawn resistance movements.

    Elsewhere, I help sensibly-run Railways with such processes, which, as you say, can lead to understanding, compromise and the retention of the passionate folk our movement needs. In Somerset we just bleed.

    Robin (a hard mole to whack).
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
  15. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    OK IAN, i will bite, first of all the GM needs to stand down, and someone respected and acceptable to all parties to step in as interim general manager, the currant board need to announce they will support this new GM, his, or her first job has to be the stabilisation of the railway, with an honest appraisal of where the railway is at, its costs, liabilities, and to chart a way forward to ensure the railway can remain viable, second, as an statement of intension to right any wrongs, all suspensions of PLC cards to be revoked and invalid, any and all restrictions lifted, a working party established to draw up a rule book with clear rules on suspensions and removal of staff ID's only as a last resort, but decided by a panel, not just the PLC, an open door policy on airing grievances etc.

    Round table talks involving all parties, including the SCC, to establish a new overreaching charity that comprises all the various groups , and will act as a main support group, the aim to gain charitable status, and examine other avenues of funding, and chart a yearly plan, along with plans to push the railway and improve local, and national awareness marketing the railway.
    All assets owned by the PLC, loco's, stock, to be transferred to a charitable trust, to protect them, the PLC retains the licence for the time being,
    The charity to purchase all the unsold shares of the PLC, to give it an 51 per cent or more share holding, this in return for the PLC gifting the assets to the charitable trust,
     
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  16. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    Spot on Ian!

    Actually a lot of work was done by a small group of volunteers covering exactly that ground. The result was a comprehensive implementation plan.

    As you suggest the plan identified that shareholders' situation is critical. Generally it seemed that shareholders' priority was preserving their travel benefits.

    (As an aside these seem extraordinarily generous. There's a common mistake of offering inducements with future costs that are either not properly quantified or treated as tomorrow's problem. As pre-booking and reserved seating are increasingly likely in response to customer expectations generous free travel obligations can impose significant costs).

    The other obvious shareholder benefit is the notional ability to influence the direction of the railway through one vote per share. It's always seemed to me that a root cause of tensions on the WSR is that, unless they are shareholders, its volunteers and supporters are, in a strict sense, not members of the railway. They may be members of distinct charities (that are constrained in what they can do by their charitable objects) but that's arms length without any direct influence.

    To clarify a couple of previous posts my original suggestion was that if a new holding company charity was formed the members of the existing charities could choose whether to carry on with their limited purposes ( as it seems the WSRHT are happy to do) or to fold into the new charity. It would depend entirely on their members' wishes.

    My thinking has moved on somewhat. I can now see merit in the holding company charity being a charitable community benefit society. Some other heritage railways like the South Devon and the RH&DR have already made that transition. In many respects it's a model that's a much closer fit to the origins of many heritage railways as members' preservation societies, but with the benefit of limited liability. Limited companies and charities have their drawbacks for member centric heritage railways especially charities which must be run for public benefit rather than in their members' interests. Like traditional charities a charitable CB Soc. can target grants from the many funding bodies that will only donate to charities and can benefit from Gift Aid on donations. However the sting in the tail of the CB Soc. model is that, like a preservation society, it's one member one vote regardless of the number of shares you hold. Individual PLC shareholders who bought a thousand or so shares would only have one vote, as would the supporting charities and the SCC. However a CB Soc. would mean the railway could function more as the community business many seem to believe the railway should be.

    Maybe at some stage the implementation plan can be taken down off the shelf and adapted to design a WSR Community Benefit Society?
     
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  17. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    As a Plc shareholder who does hold a very modest number of shares, I have no problem with that 'sting'. I am quite content with the 'one person, one vote' method of representation.
    I suspect that, for many of us who hold shares in similar organisations, the number of shares that each of us hold is due more to our personal financial situation (little or lots of 'spare cash') than as a reflection of our interest in/dedication to the actual railway. Perhaps more to the point, which should be considered to carry the greater 'weight' - 500 votes from 500 individual volunteers (each of whom owns 1 share), or 500 votes from a single 'formal body' which holds 500 shares? After all, the supporting charities might simply cast all their votes the same way (a bit like unions at the TUC) rather than seek the views of their individual members and apportion their votes accordingly.
     
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  18. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's the individual shareholders that would have a problem with that, nor the charities, who, by and large, only bought their shares as a way of transferring money into the Plc. However SCC's shareholding came about as payment for a lease on the trackbed and could thus be considered as a public asset, which they are being asked to give away. However, I would have thought that they would be much more likely to give it to a charity or a community benefit society than any other form of organisation.
    The CB idea would get my vote as a shareholder, what do others think?
    Are there actually any figures for the opportunity cost of the travel benefits, i.e. how many shareholders used their free tickets to prevent a paying passenger from travelling on a fully booked train? Whilst the benefits are notionally generous, I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a tiny fraction of shareholders who actually took them up.
     
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  19. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    It's a good point. I don't know the answer but someone who volunteers on the WSR whose opinion I trust told me that on some trains around 20% to 30% of passengers were travelling free. Since some shareholder benefits included free travel for members' families perhaps that's not surprising.

    As is well recognised heritage railway shares are really donations with benefits attached. Some railways seem to have made a success of issues but the costs involved are considerable. Compiling and issuing the compulsory prospectus can consume a sizeable chunk of the proceeds as well as the obligation to pay for the services of an authorised issuer. Apart from the absence of Gift Aid, on what is really a donation, there's the administrative cost of maintaining the share register, sending our the Report and Accounts and AGM documentation. In short there are significant on going costs which tend to be seen as something to worry about in the future. If travel concessions are too generous they may just add to the long term bill.

    Of the various fundraising options available to heritage railways a public share issue with future benefits seems to be one of the less attractive.
     
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  20. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    I think OMOV would be a good move because it would remove the power of the bloc vote that currently exists whereby nothing can be done without the support of both the WSRA and WSST.

    The dilution of power within any new WSR structures would be a very welcome benefit.

    There have been some comments about people running railways. Might I suggest that there should be enhanced due diligence on people standing for or holding office. It appears to me that the current situation could have been avoided if there had been better scrutiny before appointment - not just in terms of business dealings but also people skills.
     

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