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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. dunghill1

    dunghill1 New Member

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    Its over thirty years since I knew that part of the track but from memory there were no large stuctures on the section down to Bishop Lydeard just one small steel bridge over a small stream, so it possible that nothing was done to that section to allow the Royal train to be stabled on the section just the paperwork.
     
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  2. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    How much of an inspection would have been undertaken just for the occasional stabling of the royal train somewhere along that section of line?
    So why is it suddenly so important to be able to run heavier engines, , I would have thought that ensuring the railway actually survives would have been more important, or is it what a board member wants, a board member gets, in this case to be able to play with his engines on his line, as he see's it, It does make you wonder, is this the guiding direction behind everything that has happened so far ? It has to be remembered that no one person, no matter what position they hold can, or should be bigger than the railway, i can think of no railway, where the opposite has been the case, people and the positions they hold, do change, as demonstrated by first the SVR, Then later, by the MHR, Both lines having now moved on from their unhappy past's, because people stuck together, and the railway was bigger than those who thought they were the railway.
     
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  3. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    This business of some folks seeing red rather encapsulates the wider question of a coherent strategy to take the WSR forwards. Without that, given how the situation down Minehead way is generally perceived, the priorities to seem (how to put this tactfully?) a tad ad-hoc.

    It may be that there's a perfectly logical imperative, though to my mind, some statement along the lines of "no significant expenditure shall be undertaken which is incompatible with the aim of increasing permissible axle load" would seem rather more pragmatic, given what we're being told of the current situation. By 'significant', I'm thinking in terms of projects on the scale of bridge renewals, where it'd be crazy to throw funds at a job which it's obvious would need re-doing in a very few years, if the plan is for axle-load to be raised.
     
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  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    A couple of things strike me about "red route status".

    One is that it feels slightly meaningless if you don't also mention the speed, since for steam locos at least, the dynamic load increases with speed. So a bridge that isn't capable of taking a 20 ton axle load at 50mph may be OK at 25mph (or 15, or lower). My understanding is that when the GWR painted dots on the side of their locos, it was generally on the presumption of where they could run at normal line speed (so a red engine could do normal line speed on a red route). You may well be able to run a red engine on a blue route if it comes with a speed restriction. The original Minehead branch was I believe a blue route when the line speed was 50mph; it may well support heavier engines at 25mph line speed since the hammer blow on structures is reduced.

    The other point, and where I have some sympathy with the board in raising the issue, is in regards how you pay for infrastructure enhancements. Upgrading the line - for example heavier rail, closer sleepers etc - is not much more expensive than doing a like-for-like if you do it as part of normal planned maintenance. But that means setting out your aspiration, accepting it might take 25 years or more to get there. Clearly if you took a line in good order with a 17 ton axle load limit and said "we want to run 20t trains next year" you would have a very big bill. But if you say "our aspiration is to run 20t trains, so all the infrastructure work we have planned over the 25 (or whatever) renewal lifecycle will be done with a 20t limit in mind" then it may cost little more than doing the renewal to 17t limit. The point is, you are doing the work anyway, the marginal cost enhancement of doing it to a higher standard is fairly small proportion of the whole. It only becomes expensive if you aim to do it more rapidly than the natural rate that you are renewing the infrastructure. (Of course, that may mean that you put in, for example, a strengthened bridge that you can't exploit for a decade or more, but the WSR would hardly be the first railway that was a heavy user of Swindon locos to have consciously made that choice! ;)

    I guess the point is, I don't think the fact that the plc has set out what future standard it plans to run to is an inherently bad thing. It would be far worse if it had no standard, undertook a twenty year rolling plan of infrastructure renewal and then suddenly discovered it couldn't run the trains it planned. "What do you mean I can't run a red route loco?" "Well, if you wanted to do that, you needed to have told me twenty years ago when I replaced that bridge"

    Tom
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Quite - and said in far fewer words than I managed!

    Tom
     
  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    T'is often said there's a first (quite possibly, only) time for everything! ;)
     
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  7. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    When you look at the Premier League lines and their appeals they are for nice to have but more importantly vital to the longer term survival of the line. For example, carriage shed and under cover projects are vital for protecting stock and reducing costs associated.

    I fail to see how upgrading the route to red route status moves out of the nice to have category and into the vital to the long term survival of the line category.

    How will moving it to red route status improve the financial situation - in what way does allowing charter engines to run through to Minehead instead of BL mean more revenue or lower costs?

    Do red route engines have significant cost savings over blue route locos?

    Are WSR passenger numbers so high that there is a need to run longer heavier trains that require the higher power that red route locos provide?

    Will it cost more or will it cost less to maintain the infrastructure to red route status than it would to maintain it successfully as a blue route?
     
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  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    You could probably make an argument by flipping that on its head: not "our numbers are so high we need large locos" but rather "unless we have high numbers, the line isn't viable at its current length". In other words, the only way to make a twenty mile line pay is to have (say) 250k+ passengers per year, and that means lengthy trains and large locos. You still have to find the passengers of course, but if you have 250k passengers, you need to be able to haul them. If the line can get by (in seat-mile terms) using a 45xx on a four coach train, it probably isn't hauling enough passengers to make it pay, in particular to pay the maintenance on a 20 mile line. I'm sure some will use that as an argument to shorten the line - but we have been down that rabbit hole many times. I prefer to think "OK, we have twenty miles of infrastructure to maintain - so what does that mean in terms of annual passenger numbers, and how do we haul them?" That points to large trains to me.

    I think the other long-term consideration, in particular for a line that doesn't own its own locos, is to have the smallest possible number of constraints on the future hire market. If you have a red route line and the only loco available for hire is blue - no problem. But if you have a blue route line and the only loco available is red - then you have an existential problem. Of course, in the short term it hardly helps to have burnt bridges with a loco capable of hauling a ten coach train with a 16ton axle load, but even if that hadn't been done - how many other such locos exist? Not many. There will always be more opportunity to hire a 19 ton axle load Hall than a 16 ton axle load 7F.

    So to me, I can easily imagine a strategic conversation in which you look at your business risks and consider that working towards red route is a strategically sound decision. It isn't just about three or four incoming rail tours (which in any case seem to be handled with greatest operational flexibility with the mainline loco coming off at Bishops Lydeard).


    Exactly. If the actual constraint on weight is one or two under bridges, you can just apply a speed restriction over that bridge.

    Tom
     
  9. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Considering falling passenger numbers it would seem that they are not presently attracting enough passengers to make the line pay. If you are running 7 coach trains at 75% capacity, I don't see how running 10 coach trains at 50% capacity helps.

    You point out that it is a marginal cost to upgrade from 17.5 to 20t, however, surely those costs increase the longer the line is. And at the risk of sounding like a vexed vectasian the costs of upgrading and maintaining a 20 mile line are much higher than maintaining a 2.5 mile line.

    Also, the point about hiring in locos is interesting and ironic as alongside the 7F being evicted the PLC refused to sell 4110 to the group of supporters because they wanted all the locos to be owned by the railway or the WSRA. Now they want to upgrade the route to a level where they will have to hire in locos. It shows the lack of forethought by the board.

    If the patient needs short term funds because it is on life support, I am not sure asking people to pony up for tap dancing lessons is the right strategy.
     
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  10. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Potentially, yes, if more powerful engines aren't worked as hard there's less wear and tear. Moreover though, red route engines are better than not enough engines, and depending on locomotive availability in the future, that might well be the case. Once you take out all locos not powerful enough to haul WSR trains, take out GWR 2-8-0s due to flange wear (unless I've made it up, my understanding was that the WSR preferred to avoid GWR 2-8-0s these days), you're not left with much that's not too heavy. There's only so many Manors and large prairies likely to be available at any one time.

    I should imagine it would cost more or less the same. Remember the WSR was downgraded to blue route at least partly because they hadn't done enough maintenance at all, so I wouldn't say it was being successfully maintained as a blue route currently. The axle weight downgrade always felt like an emergency measure to me pending more thorough solutions, which needed to be done regardless of what axle weight you wanted to end up with.
     
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  11. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    As with many other WSR volunteers/supporters I have long since recognised that the expression of
    favourable opinions with respect to the WSR on National Preservation is counter productive.

    However when a person who has intimate knowledge of the WSR posts I take notice. The
    extension of the loop at Williton and the associated signalling modifications essentially
    restored the position as before the later BR changes. The reasons for this were primarily
    to restore the UP Williton platform to full use and to enable simultaneous entrance of
    trains to the two platforms. ( There were often delays, particularly during the peak
    Timetable occasioned by the Down service having to wait at the Home signal whilst
    the UP train made its way into the UP platform: the resultant delays then reverberating
    throughout the rest of the day ). In other words the modified arrangement was justified
    operationally.

    Also as a point of record, whilst the requirement was identified at the end of the last
    century the Plc financial priorities were such that it was placed on the ‘back burner’.

    Ultimately the required funds were generated mainly by envelope donations, specifically
    for the Williton loop extension, on the service trains over a period of years.

    I note the reference to Internal Rates of Return. ( i.e return on investment ) I cannot
    foresee how the application of a ‘Hurdle Rate’ ( effectively the Minimum Acceptable
    Rate of Return ) can find application on any Heritage Railway, and that only expenditure
    that provides an IRR in excess of MARR can be considered, on the WSR or arguably any
    other Heritage Railway.

    AFAIK on the WSR ( and I surmise on other lines ) the governing criteria are how do we
    keep the trains running, how to attract additional income, whether donations or ancillary
    activities, and how to maximise voluntary input. I am afraid inevitably many decisions
    will be emotionally charged, it is the nature of a business with hobby overtones.

    I note recent posts re the MD turntable: much discussed in the past, heaviest permitted
    loco, a Brittania.

    Re red routes. If pax levels return ( or are predicated to ) pre 2007 levels then BR 4 or
    probably. 5 steam motive power classification necessary ( also much discussed in the past )
    i.e a higher route availability than current.

    Michael Rowe
     
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  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Lots to unpick in there. I’d simply say that just because the company has made some bad decisions doesn’t automatically mean that all decisions it makes are bad.

    I prefer to try to look at it through the eyes of how you actually manage a line like that. What’s our big problem? Making such a long line pay. OK, how do you do that? The only option is high passenger numbers. So what are the minimum requirements to haul sufficient passengers? Class 5+ locos, for which the line needs to be up to a certain standard. So that is a minimum. OK, you could upgrade the line, stuff up the marketing and fail anyway. But if you get the marketing right to the extent you get the bare minimum passengers you need (which is more than they currently have) it would be a strategic error if they couldn’t haul them on account of a lack of motive power available to work the line.

    I’m wondering what your solution is to making sufficient money to maintain the line while hosting no loco larger than 17t axle load?

    Tom
     
  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    New build Manors?... :)
     
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  14. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    [QUOTE="Maunsell907, post: 2676844, member: 21887"......

    However when a person who has intimate knowledge of the WSR posts I take notice. The
    extension of the loop at Williton and the associated signalling modifications essentially
    restored the position as before the later BR changes. The reasons for this were primarily
    to restore the UP Williton platform to full use and to enable simultaneous entrance of
    trains to the two platforms. ( There were often delays, particularly during the peak
    Timetable occasioned by the Down service having to wait at the Home signal whilst
    the UP train made its way into the UP platform: the resultant delays then reverberating
    throughout the rest of the day ). In other words the modified arrangement was justified
    operationally.......
    [/QUOTE]
    I would agree with the above. The only 'extras' over and above the GWR/early-BR facilities, apart from full track-circuiting, are the provision of additional (outer) Homes for acceptance purposes and additional shunt signals for previously-unsignalled moves. The latter are a valuable safety feature IMHO for a station being used for more than just a simple passing-loop and the former help to compensate for and reduce the delays caused by late-running services and the length of the BA-WN section. Certainly not what I would consider to be unwarranted luxuries.
     
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  15. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    One thing that is interesting is that out in the years the WSR were at their peak passenger numbers, the steam fleet in use were mostly not red rated, 6412, 5542, 5553, 4160, 9351, 7828, 7820, 3850 & 53808 were all regulars over the period and could be used now with the weight restriction. Only 6960 & 80136 of the regulars would be overweight. Even if 6412 was considered to small, the rest were capable of 6 coach minimum.
     
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  16. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    I don't think it is a bad long term aspiration but I am doubtful of its merits as a goal for short term survival. The short term alternative solutions have been hamstrung by earlier bad decisions by the board.

    I have said before that if the line needs 1 million year on year then it is not financially viable in any form red route or not.

    What would I do? Short, medium and long term.

    i) scope the works
    ii) cost the works
    iii) develop a coherent and viable scheme of works that was financially practical. Develop funding appeal in a professional manner based on that rather than because I thought of it when I reached the end of the bottle of wine.
    iv) reverse declining passenger numbers - needs more research why are numbers dropping?
    v) reducing costs by making more use of diesels etc. Hello Skippers.
    vi) apologising to the S&DRT and agreeing to pay for the overhaul as per the contract. Thereby hopefully regaining use of a powerful low axle weight for the line.
    vii) improved covered stock storage. Looks untidy, poor public image, lowering overhaul and restoration costs.

    If iv is successful that means more revenue and the possibility of speeding up works.

    What would you do?
     
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  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Although I'm an Engineer, I'm not a Bridge Engineer and that branch of the profession remains a black art to me. I don't know what constraints are imposed by blue or red restrictions nor do I understand the complexities of the RA system of restrictions currently in use on the big railway. If I can cite the Network rail line from Middlesborough to Whitby, it is classed as RA7 and my simple understanding is that anything of RA7 or below can operate without restriction. Not so, though. Although it is RA7, it is not passed for what are termed heavy axle weight vehicles. What constitutes this category I don't know but I do know it includes certain steam locos. There is a long list of which locos are included in this category, numerically running from 4936 right through to 80135. Most steam locos are classed as heavy weight but not Pannier tanks, 48151, 75029, 76079 and 76084 (although 80135 is). The documentation prohibits all steam locos greater than RA9 (are there any?) but does allow locos of RA8 & RA9 to operate subject to speed restrictions over certain bridges. That seems fairly logical but Black 5's and B1's are RA5 but are also subject to restrictions over some bridges which, to me, sort of defeats the logic of the RA route clearance system. What has also intrigued me is that, when the NYMR first started running to Whitby there were far more bridge restrictions in place but most have now gone yet no work has been done to the bridges. Well, not quite true as one bridge was repainted. One day there was 10mph restriction on three bridges, the next you could run over them at line speed. It almost seems as though the restrictions imposed were down to the opinions of those carrying out the periodic assessments. If this happens on Network Rail I can well start to understand how a route can go from being blue to red then back again at the stroke of a pen and considered opinion.

    I can, however, fully understand how track can be restricted due to wear of the head and such as chair galling which can generally be overcome by simply re-railing the affected sections.
     
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  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    In lots of ways, probably not that dissimilar (except that I have never been convinced that diesels are the saving that people assume, once you factor in the decline in passenger numbers and the fact that your fixed fixed costs aren't reduced by a swapping motive power - you still have the same infrastructure, carriage maintenance and business costs regardless of traction).

    Where I differ is that I think motive power will become scarcer in years to come, and it will become much more of a seller's market than it is now. In that sort of market, doing things that maximise your opportunities to hire available locomotives makes a degree of sense. OK, you can argue that if they played things differently they might get No. 88 back - but that is only one loco when you need about five or six. One loco with a low axle load isn't enough to run a service, and last time I looked, there weren't too many other 7Fs out there.

    Tom
     
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  19. Vulcan Works

    Vulcan Works Member

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    Sound advice that could equally apply to a number of other under-performing heritage railways…

    I would add:
    Item 3 - Prioritise the work / activities (large and small) and pick off the relatively easy wins to demonstrate progress and give a morale boost.
    Item 4 - Maximise the spending opportunities of the people who do visit e.g. shops (inc. online services) and catering.
    Item 5 - Travelling by train is a novelty for many people so make it an event, I’m not ashamed to admit that I’m a fan of pacers/skippers for heritage lines and so are my children, who are the majority of the target family market!

    The key is for the 3 main railway groups to work together and unite behind a plan. It requires the leadership team(s) to share power to an extent and to recognise their weaknesses, which seems an unlikely scenario at the moment.
     
  20. 32110

    32110 Member

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    Appeal thermometer updated on 13/7 t0 £29,420.
     

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