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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The cylinders may be higher but, being 4 cyl machines, they're 2½" less in diameter, which is a critical thing. According to Wiki, a King is 1/4" wider than a Hall, which is 1/4" wider than a Castle. (Usual caveat apply with Wiki info.)
     
  2. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    image.jpeg
    "British Locomotive Types" (1946) gives:

    King. 8' 11"1/2

    Hall. 8' 11"1/4. Modified Hall. 8' 11"1/8

    Castle. 8' 11"1/2

    Which seems to disagree with Wiki. I'd go with the earlier source,
     
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  3. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Well-Known Member

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    Under BR auspices (and SR before then) 2 cylinder GWR 4-6-0s had greater access to SR routes than the larger 4 cylinder Classes.

    Halls regularly worked through to Bournemouth from Basingstoke. ( I timed 6910 South in 1963 and 6991 North in 1964 on the Bournemouth York/Newcastle). In 1966 LMClass5 4-6-0s hauled the train from Banbury to Bournemouth ( 45493 South, touched 80 past Winchester Jct).

    Halls worked regularly Basingstoke to Portsmouth via Eastleigh, very occasionally they ran Salisbury Romset - Soton - Netley - Pompey (in practice I think they were not permitted over the Netley line but a blind eye was cast.)

    Memory says a Grange was tested over the SR (Basingstoke to Portsmouth, and Bournemouth) in 1938/9 and post this they were passed for Bournemouth with the exception of one platform at Eastleigh. They were regular performers through to Bournemouth in the 1950s and up to 1965.

    Whilst Stars also worked through to Portsmouth (via Netley) and Bournemouth, Castles were definitely not permitted. On the odd occasion one found its way to either place it was sent back l/e and at 25mph, usually after a few days deliberation. (I think the delay was to inconvenience the Western Region and therefore discourage future transgressions.

    (Whatever 'wiki' says Casles (and Kings) under GWR/BR auspices were wider over the cylinders than a Hall or Grange. Height of the cylinders above rail level also paid a part wrt platform clearance i.e. Grange/Manor 5ft 8 inch coupled wheels, Hall 6 feet, King 6 feet 6 inch, Castle 6 ft 8 inch.)

    Manors worked regularly into Redhill from Reading. (Over former SE&C and L&SW routes)

    The enigma to me has been the former LB&SC routes. AFAIK no ex GWR 4-6-0 whether 2 or 4 cylinder was ever permitted over any of them. Indeed when, as occasionally happened, a LM Jubilee showed up at Brighton or Eastborne,on a through working, rather than a LM 5 4-6-0 there was consternation . Why an enigma ? I thought in the 1930s,post electrification, when Marsh Atlantics, I3s etc became available they were modified to meet a uniform SR loading gauge. I have always assumed that the LB&SC limits were more generous than the ex SECR or L&SWR routes ?

    (Memory says a Castle made it through to Brighton once and was promptly impounded, or have I got the wrong class ?)

    Tom I would have always assumed that your loading gauge on the Bluebell would be more generous than the MHR ? i.e. If the MHR could run ex GWR 4-6-0s so could you.

    Michael Rowe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
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  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Michael - I'll look up the exact figures this afternoon / evening, but as a matter of general principal, the Brighton loading gauge was more generous in height but less generous in width than the SouthWestern - hence the Brighton Atlantics needing cut down cabs and boiler fittings to fit the SR composite gauge, but the width over cylinders was fine. Whereas part of the process of Maunsellisation of the Urie S15s and N15s involved raising the boiler pressure so the cylinder diameter could be reduced. They also got cut-down cabs so they could work on the SECR section, which was the most restrictive of all.

    Tom
     
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  5. Steve1015

    Steve1015 Member

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    Yes
     
  6. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Nat Pres stalwart

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    An interesting box, Kentsford.

    Installed in 1933 under the unemployment relief scheme as a summer relief box. But from 1952 to 1964 open permanently. Then closed and removed as part of the run down of the branch towards closure.

    Robin

    IMG_4343.JPG
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The relevant dimensions were:

    LBSCR
    Height - 13'6" on the centreline, radiused at 7'6" towards the sides
    Width - 9'0" above platform level, which was defined (I believe) at 3'4" above rail level.

    LSWR
    Height - 13'4" on the centreline, radiused at 5'6" towards the sides
    Width - 9'3" above platform level, which was defined at 2'9" above rail level

    SECR
    Height - 13'1" on the centreline, radiused at 5'9 3/16"
    Width - 9'0" above platform level, which I believe was at 3'4" above rail level.

    So the LBSCR was higher, and had a more gentle radius to the edges so allowed very generous cabs in their top corners (which has a knock-on impact on things like canopy valences). The LSWR was widest, and also allowed that wideness down to a lower level. The SECR was as narrow as the LBSCR, and lower than both.

    Obviously, even on the lines concerned, a few odd bits were more restricted than those gauges would imply, for example, the Hastings Tunnels, or the Canterbury and Whitstable, and for those lines, special restrictions on rolling stock and locomotives applied. As I am sure you are aware, the sloping cab sides on your namesake loco are a direct consequence of being built to fit to the Hastings line restriction; three cylinders also works out narrower than an otherwise similar two cylinder design of equivalent TE.

    The composite gauge was:

    SR
    Height - 13'1" on the centreline, radiused at 5'9 1/16"
    Width - 9'0" above platform level, which was 3'4".

    So I think the answer about GWR locos on preserved SR lines - assuming those lines are still maintained within their original gauge - is that they would be much less problematic on the MHR and the Swanage than on the Bluebell, where chunks might start disappearing from platforms.

    Tom
     
  8. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Nat Pres stalwart

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    Has the 2016/17 winter Bluebell Railway 'Fit to Volunteer' programme started to have effect, then?:)

    Robin
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don't think loading gauge is too much of an issue, but the bridge strength committee has to be consulted before certain combinations of loco crew can be rostered together ;)

    Tom
     
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  10. Paul Kibbey

    Paul Kibbey Well-Known Member

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    When 9351 is back in service I'll be booking my next trip across the Irish Sea for that event .

    Paul . K
     
  11. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Well-Known Member

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    Tom, thanks. As you say, ex L&SWR routes were more likely to accept ex GWR outside cylindered locos.

    Whilst Halls on occasion worked Weymouth Bournemouth, I photographed one arriving at Bournemouth Central on a very foggy Christmas Eve 1964, I don't think they ever ventured over the Salisbury Yeovil Exeter route.

    It would seem likely that the Redhill, Guildford Reading line loading gauge was more generous width wise than the further east sections of the SECR as 43xx moguls and Manors were regulars. For many years of course the ex LC &D routes were severely limited load wise, hence the very clever D1 and E1 rebuilds.

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
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  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    With regard the Reading / Redhill route, the Reading - Wokingham and Ash Jct - Guildford sections were joint LSWR, so presumably presented no problems for GWR locos anyway. I wonder if in places there was a bit of judicious slewing through some of the stations if they were known to be "tight", which would be eased on the ex-SER route east of Guildford by virtue of the staggered platforms, meaning it might have been possible to ease the running lines through the platform roads without running into the problem of getting closer to one platform as you move away from another.

    As for the D1/E1 rebuilds - typical Maunsell genius! I think the combination of loads, gradients, curves and weight restrictions - and often nasty gradients immediately following speed-restricted curves - must have made running on the various routes between London and Dover / Folkestone amongst the most operationally taxing networks of lines of comparable scale anywhere in the country.

    Anyway, I suspect the sacred brethren of the copper-cap are probably asleep by now with all this talk of real railways ...

    Tom
     
  13. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    An article I have seen in the Railway Magazine C1933 also states that automatic token exchange equipment was installed as well
     
  14. nick glanf

    nick glanf New Member

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  15. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Nat Pres stalwart

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    It is the Release for the north yard ground frame.

    Robin
     
  16. nick glanf

    nick glanf New Member

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    Thanks I did not now that a king lever could be used for that function. I have been reading about the king levers that were used for the Royal Albert Bridge to protect the section between the Saltash Box and the Albert Bridge Box in the 60's. Thanks
     
  17. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Nat Pres stalwart

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    It isn't a King Lever.

    That term is used for a lever that breaks down locking to allow a box to switch out.

    Robin
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
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  18. athelney

    athelney New Member

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    Whilst Stars also worked through to Portsmouth (via Netley) and Bournemouth, Castles were definitely not permitted. On the odd occasion one found its way to either place it was sent back l/e and at 25mph, usually after a few days deliberation. (I think the delay was to inconvenience the Western Region and therefore discourage future transgressions.

    One instance was in 1963 when 5050 'Earl of St Germans' made it to Portsmouth on a special from Bristol , it was promptly impounded and spend some time on Fratton depot, and returned home to Bristol on 20th June 1963 ..I observed it at 25mph passing Halterworth Crossing between Eastleigh and Romsey ( the signalman showed us his special notice ) ....
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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  20. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Nat Pres stalwart

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    4160 Ltd AGM 2016/17

    Word reaches me that this is to be held Llangollen this year at 18.15 on Friday 10 February.

    Convenient for the Plymouth and West Somerset members.:rolleyes:

    I am likely to attend as a proxy for at least one member. If anyone would wish me to do so on their behalf as well, do PM me or e-mail me.

    Kind regards

    Robin
     
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