Welshpool & Llanfair locos

I'm looking forward to 699 riding the rails again, but in some ways it is a pity that "Powys Castle" isn't being built which I gather was an option considered (briefly). After all the major components have all been made before with the exception of the frames which is probably about £5k worth of laser cut steel

For those confused by the reference to 7024, I was speculating about what the 3rd engine originally envisaged by the company would have been called.

 

I am aware of the problems caused by the boiler design though there are mixed reports with respect to steaming it is agreed that steam raising is slow. In spite of the locomotive's historical importance it has had an unfortunate history in preservation. The engine is not incapable of improvement and there have been proposals to undertake these in the past. I am glad that it is back in one piece again, so to speak, after the Ffestiniog misadventure. I am not saying that it should be taken in hand but rather that it could be.

 

To reply to Ragl.

The steaming issues have long been acknowledged to be in part about the lack of a full set of superheaters during the time on the WLLR. Converting to oil firing was discussed several times, and I think that the railway even had some components of the equipment needed for the change that Bowaters had bought (but my memory may be playing tricks here). Certainly that would get around the firing issues, but the cost of running would be significant. (FR have converted back to coal for this reason).

What is unavoidable is the need to carry a very high water level to crest some of the summits. Coppice Lane and Golfa would be the main challenges. The Tubize was pretty alarming in this respect having a very long boiler, and Monarch would have even less margin for error. It is a technically demanding line from a firing point of view. No mean feat to arrive at the top of 1.5miles of 1 in 29 / 1 in 30ish pulling a heavy train, and go over the top with a full pot. With Monarch probably full enough that any surging would cause water carry over, as would a slip during the closing stages of the climb. The WLLR firemen are genuinely some of the best there are, but I think Monarch would test them. On a fair day that's fine, but when it isn't all going swimmingly that's a different matter. Best converted into a Garratt (as the FR intended to do at one stage) or left as a display item until someone finds a flat 2'6" railway.

p.s. I think I remember correctly that there was never any intention to get Monarch running when it was bought back from the FR. It was only ever done in order to ensure the future of loco as a static exhibit... the last narrow gauge industrial steam loco built for the UK. It was getting into a bit of a state in the yard at Minffordd.

 

A well reasoned explanation to the issues for Monarch on the W & L 21B, thank you for providing that.

At least the loco has an assured future, even if it is as a static exhibit. It is a shame that there is nowhere else for it to work usefully though.

Cheers

Alan

 

The Sittingbourne would fit the bill of a flat 2' 6" railway but is there any thought of returning to her "home" railway?

 

But that brings me back to Monarch's historical importance. Yes, we often have to modify old locos to suit the needs of preserved lines, and in most cases I don't have a problem with that. But Monarch is a particularly important link in the story of British steam, as the last NG steam loco built for British industry. If her design was unsuccessful, then that is part of her story too. She should be preserved as she is, not as she might have been.

There's absolutely no good reason to restore her to steam, since the W&L has plenty of other engines, and we will one day be able to see a sister in steam (albeit in Colorado). So I say don't muck about with her - leave her as she is.

 

My theory is that it would have been "The Viscount", Viscount Clive being the title traditionally given to the eldest son of the Earl of Powys.

 

Maybe it could be called THE EARL'S MISTRESS

THE EARL
THE COUNTESS
THE EARL'S MISTRESS

Makes a nice compliment of locos if maybe a little awkward when THE COUNTESS and THE EARL'S MISTRESS were left in the loco shed alone together...

 

Can you imagine Countess and "Mistress" double-heading????

 

Hi Alan,

I can't really comment too much on Monarch since I have expressed my preference for Sir D and there are others who know the loco much better than me. I cannot disagree with your comments, but with limited resources we have at our disposal there are better options at this moment in time.

Monarch was bought back from the FR by a syndicate of W&L members who donated it to the W&L with the objective of cosmetic restoration (not yet complete, there are many bits still in store) and securing the locomotive as a future option. Monarch has traditionally been the adopted pet of the W&L members based in the South East of England and the same team battled with her problems, but as I understand many of these men paid for her return from Boston Lodge I cannot dispute their actions and suspect there is a feeling of unfinished business.

But I do have a few comments to make having read the Narrow Gauge World article which I think was a bit too negative in certain places.

The locomotive was mechanically worn out upon arrival on the W&L. Monarch arrived on the W&L with two sets of wheels (i.e. 8 axles), both sets were understood to be worn out. One of the sets (now sadly scrapped) were stored for many years at Heniarth and exhibited the deepest hollow wear and the largest false flanges I have ever seen - is this typical of a locomotive that only saw limited use at Bowaters? It is understood that Monarch replaced two smaller locomotive duties on Bowaters railway roster which was operated on a 3 shift system so its introduction made 6 men redundant, intellegence gained from a W&L Group visit to Bowaters in the 1960s informed us that the locomotive was more unloved rather than unreliable. Micheal "Fritz" O'Callaghan who led the restoration wrote "It has been said that she hardly did a good days work. I find this hard to believe as my experiance of industry is that every piece of equipment is thrashed so that money invested shows a good return. I was not suprised to find indications of Monarch working hard in sofar as she wore out two sets of tyres and other bits and pieces. Not only were the wheels which we took out well worn but so also were the bushes in the valve gear. I think she suffered from lack of attention from the drivers as all the moving parts except the axleboxes are lubricated by grease and it seems likely that the only grease guns belonged to the fitters at Sittingbourne". Fritz goes on to reveal that most of the pins on the valve gear had to be replaced as well as piston rings etc.

Monarch was the first locomotive to be overhauled by the W&L, which was accomplished in very spartan conditions to those enjoyed by other railways and by the W&L today. There was no workshop until 1971 and no inspection pit for many years. Parts had to be removed and carried to the local car garage to be worked on. W&L locomotives had to be towed out to the bridge by the old Water Tower for underside inspections (not easy as the Llanfair-Cyfronydd section had to be blocked since this was beyond the limit of shunt). The volunteers themselves were relatively unexperianced and learning as they went along with a loco that wasn't an ideal beginners project. There maybe things done in the overhaul that would be done differently now. One thing in particular was that none of the members who dismantled her in 1966 were involved in putting it back together in 1969-1971, this came to a head when it was discovered that one of the axles was fitted the wrong way around, so if it had been given steam the bogies would have either charged at each other or tried heading off in seperate directions!

Monarch was the railway's only operable steam locomotive in the Summer of 1976 and gallantly kept the railway running... in a style similar to Dolgoch in Rolt's "Railway Adventure", it can be argued that she did have her moment of glory.

Best wishes,
Gareth Houghton

 

699 news and appeal details here:

http://www.89a.org.uk/699-appeal/

 

Eleven photos taken in 1978 by Les Tindall may be of interest. Monarch, Sierra Leone 85, The Earl, Sir Drefaldwyn, Joan and Dougal were all in steam:

http://andrewstransport.smugmug.com...alway/47062736_KzDhNm#!i=3834599541&k=jFBdMXf

Only The Earl of these locos was in steam when I visited in 2011:

http://andrewstransport.smugmug.com...ilway/19497535_VGHdzr#!i=1526424184&k=tb8vd6R

Cheers

Andrew N