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Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by tony51, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    The same applied to Double Fairlies on the reinstated WHR. Turns out in that case, yes it's entirely do-able, but received wisdom seems to be a careful eye needs keeping on the gauge glasses. Big difference between the ruling 'mostly up' grade (is it still 1:70?) on the Ffesterbahn, even the 1:40 up and over of the WHR and the sawtooth gradient profime and fierce curves of the W&L.

    I'd dearly love for someone with the relevant experience to not just accurately identify the design shortcomings on Monarch, but work out some fixes. The one thing I can't see past is the 'bull head' ('marine') firebox. Even were it possible to include some mechanism to prevent ash choking the fire grate, I can't see for the life of me where there's anywhere to safely handle said ash. Would gas firing be a possible or practical answer? I've no idea!
     
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  2. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Thanks for the explanation. Until I looked at the description of the locos on the website I had assumed they must have visited Swindon. Presumably, after the GWR absorbed the Cambrian, Swindon told Oswestry what to do.

    I did indeed.
     
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  3. meeee

    meeee Member

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    The fireboxes are in the middle on a double engine so keeping the crown covered is not an issue. The problem is not having too much water so one end starts priming, whilst having enough to keep the tube ends covered at the other. This is less of a problem on the tapered boiler DLG as you can run much higher water levels than on the parallel boilered locos. On the average 1 in 80 of the Festiniog it is typical to only run with about 1/4 of glass though.

    Lyd is equally problematic in having a long boiler with little waterspace.

    The W&L seems to have more than enough suitable locos, but not enough resources to make them work. I'm not sure how a complicated and oversized articulated engine would really help matters.

    Tim
     
  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Interesting. I wonder if that gives any more credence to the oft repeated tale that the L&B locos had originally been intended for a line not abounding in 1:50 gradients, both with and against the direction of travel .... up or down?

    You add another consideration which reinforces my view that the W&L isn't best suited to articulated locos.
     
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  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Just watching a clip of the Gala taken on 02/09/22. What the hell did Aberystwyth do to The Earl? I've just clocked the old loco, working the full Vintage Set, plus wagons accelerating half way up Golfa! Here you go 44'58" worth of sunshine in Mid-Wales!

     
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  6. tony51

    tony51 New Member

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    Thanks for posting this but is there a way to move it to the other WLLR thread “Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway”where most of the news and chat is, and use this one just for discussion of Roger’s historical posts, otherwise things will get confusing.
     
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  7. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

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    Many thanks for sharing, I have forwarded the link to the driver :)

    Actually the overhaul hasn’t made much difference to the loco output or performance really. Now the lempor is back in, she is pretty much the same as before in that regard.

    The Pickering set is much lighter than the set she normally has (behind ZB on the video) even with a couple of vans on the back as well. She has done 62t on the drawbar under test back in 2002/3 ish -wouldn’t want to do that every day mind, not much in reserve!
     
  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Apologies for posting wrong thread last night ... it was well past my cocoa time! :Singing:
    Genuinely surprised by that. It certainly doesn't look it! with the p.o wagon plus brake van, that was a pretty convincing. The more I've come to learn of the W&L, the more impressed by the BP locos I am.
     
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  9. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

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    the Pickerings are about 9t, the 4 wheelers 6t, slr’s 12t and MAV’s 15t (approximately anyway) and the replica pickerings are on roller bearings (as are the SLR’s) which means they do tend to run much more freely too.
    We always refer to trains in terms of units - a 4 wheeler is 1 unit, SLR is 2 (back from the days when they were all we ran!) you can follow the maths I am sure! Got more complicated when the other stock came in, Pickerings are 1.5 and MAV 2.5.

    so a Pickering train (no wagons) is 4.5 units - equivalent to MAV and 2 x 4wheeler. Which is broadly the minimum we tend to haul around these days (in fact with 1st Class SLR in its 5.5units) even if you add in the 4t open and maybe 6t for the brake you are only at 37t or about 6units give or take a bit and we max them out about 7.5 to 8 units.

    but all of the above is at tare, so excludes people! And we say 7.5/8units of passenger carrying stock. If you use the standard 75kg per person it quickly adds up to a good few tons per coach.

    all the above comes off the top of my head, and it’s been ages since I did the calculations for testing (20 years in fact) so may be subject to error! ;-)

    As for the Bayers - they are incredible machines. Durable, all adhesion, stable on their feet and an absolute delight to operate. For 20t of loco, working up 1:29 grades, including reverse curves, with 3 times their own weight on the back - and all on about 1/3t coal for the round trip - while I am biased, they take some matching.

    keeping in mind that both of them did basically 20years running with little or no attention to the motion/axle boxes etc as well.
     
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  10. tony51

    tony51 New Member

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    Thanks for the information, as a long distance member and supporter myself, it's nice to hear from people actively involved.

    Would you happen to know what the maximum load limits are in terms of "units" for the other locos? How would ZB2 and next year SirD compare with the Beyers? And I know Joan and 85 are less but by how much?
     
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  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Interesting that you calculate loads in standard units. That was common in Victorian days, where a basic four wheeled carriage counted as "1". A six-wheeler would then be 1.5, a bogie coach 2 etc. You sometimes see in e.g. accident reports that a train was "8 equal to 12" which implies that there were some heavier carriages in the consist. (8 equal to 12 could be, for example, 8 six-wheelers; or 4 bogie carriages and 4 four-wheelers etc).

    I have a hunch, but no proof, that counting that way was easier and more reliable in days when the standard of numeracy of guards and shunters may have been lower than now. Easier to count the carriages and adjust for those that aren't a standard four-wheeler, than to add up all the individual tare weights along a train that could be of considerable length. But that's just a hunch.

    Tom
     
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  12. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    Especially in imperial weights
     
  13. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

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    No worries at all :)

    As for the others, Joan and 85 are about 6 - 6.5, they are a bit lighter on their feet too and have smaller bearing surfaces and lighter construction, so things start to get a bit interesting if you work them hard. 85 had motion mods to improve wear, but the boxes struggle to last 10years as well. The motion brackets start to flex as well if you push her.

    ZB is a bit more powerful, I think she has done 7 unit, off the top of my head, but has had a bit of bearing work since it’s been with us. It also hasn’t had front end mods, so doesn’t steam quite as well as it might if it had and it suffers from being light on its feet in the wet.

    699 is a bit more interesting, in days gone by I think it’s managed 9 units on at least one occasion, but when she ran last, we rarely went above 6units. She has TE way above the bayers, and is superheated, but it all comes down to putting the power down. It will be interesting to see how she goes once she is run in.
     
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  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm old enough to remember l.s.d and from certain memory, you quickly acclimatise to pretty much everything with practise. I never once saw any transaction in 'guineas', but knew how to do the sums. Actually, with my lifelong interest in historic railways, chain measurement holds no terrors. As a modelmaker, "X"mm/ft is familiar, if crazy .... and I'm given to measuring acceleration in 'furlongs/fortnight/ □ , just 'because'!

    It's no argument against metric units, which are a damn sight easier to work with and those fools who've decided to politicise units of measure with that 'freedom units' codswallop ought to get a life .... or at the very least stay out those of generations more interested in the future than some narrow minded 'fossilisation at a random sacred point' .... pathetic!
     
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  15. tony51

    tony51 New Member

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    I don’t know if this video is widely known, but I’d never seen it …. 1956, fascinating.

     
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  16. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    And I wonder if any of the young lads watching the shunting and visiting the engine ended up working on the line as adults ? :)
     
  17. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I normally find dubbed in music on a video very annoying. But this is an exception: originally silent film, and no commentary to be smothered, and the songs are about steam, mostly written, and all but one sung, by Dave Goulder, who was an engineman in his young days.
     
  18. Karlh

    Karlh New Member

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  19. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    A fantastic video of a lifestyle now gone. I can very much associate with those young lads as that was the sort of life I had as a youngster, albeit on colliery lines. Young children were frequently welcomed onto the locos and could get close up to what was happening, even when there was shunting going on. 'Can we help you, mister?' was an oft asked question and, invariably the answer would be yes. Armed with a brake stick we would happily go along a line of trucks coupled to a loco and waiting to be moved and release the brakes, the shunter simply keeping a careful eye on what we were doing. No wonder our and earlier generations had such a passion for railways.
     
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  20. tony51

    tony51 New Member

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    Getting closer …

    https://flic.kr/p/2nTF6pn
     

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