If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

WELSH PONY 2013

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by Eagle1711, Jul 6, 2010.

  1. Eagle1711

    Eagle1711 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Bury, Greater Manchester
    As per http://www.isengard.co.uk/

    Welsh Pony question

    Welsh Pony often hauled trains on the WHR between 1923 and the 1930s closure. For many years the FR used it as a red painted attraction on a plinth on the alignment of the new WHR in Harbour Station car park. The loco was removed to safe storage under cover at Minffordd Yard several years ago as it was rusting in the sea air and in the way of the extension. It recently appeared at the FR's Quirks and Curiosities Event, repainted in bright blue livery.

    The General Manager, Paul Lewin, had originally thought that the 1867 built loco should be preserved unaltered as the surviving member of the second batch of two larger England engines on the basis that restoration would involve removing a significant amount of original material. However, he has now come around to the view that Welsh Pony might be a candidate for restoration to working order for the 150th Anniversary of FR Steam in 2013. The loco could be the star attraction. Paul Lewin invites responses to his proposal.




    Looks like we will see Welsh Pony hopefully in the not too distant future
     
  2. SillyBilly

    SillyBilly Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Penrhyndeudraeth
    Even if it was restored, realistically it isn't gong to be done by 2013, there is Prince, which would be more worthwhile doing as it is actually from the first year of steam service.
     
  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    28,704
    Likes Received:
    11,946
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Always a tough question, preserving a locomotive unrestored as an unspoiled example of Victorian engineering or restoring to working order it with all the changes required for modern day operation. Tough call.
     
  4. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    304
    It's hard to say Welsh Pony is "an unspoiled example of Victorian engineering". After several decades of neglect it's not exactly Lode Star. What changes exactly do you think are needed?
    Palmerston was in a far worse state than the Pony is and most people would not be able to spot the difference between a 1910 photo and a 2010 one.

    Hopefully there are a few people with deep pockets around to sort it out.

    As for Prince it would be nice to make it look a more vintage for 2013. The present post box on steroids look is not good.

    Tim
     
  5. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    I wonder if the idea involves using Prince's boiler on the Pony to make a 2013 steaming possible? And maybe other bits - returning some that Prince may have 'borrowed' over the years.

    It would be interesting to know what it is that changed Paul Lewin's mind.

    Many others have said it would be a shame to compromise the originality of this loco. Maybe a 'Livingstone Thompson' solution will emerge i.e. stuff & mount the old Pony, then build a new one.
     
  6. lostlogin

    lostlogin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    40
    I am not decrying the idea but with Prince and Palmeston potentially available does the FR need a third England engine. I have to admit I have a soft spot for Palmeston. Maybe because it is coal fired and I prefer the maroon paint finish but give it me over Prince anyday.

    If this is a nice to have project I would actually prefer to see the Alco restored and it is probably a more useful bit of kit for the FR?
     
  7. lynton&barnstaple

    lynton&barnstaple Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    3
    "If this is a nice to have project I would actually prefer to see the Alco restored and it is probably a more useful bit of kit for the FR? "

    here here
     
  8. SillyBilly

    SillyBilly Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Penrhyndeudraeth
    Certainly not, the idea with the Pony is to do a more Palmerston-esque restoration which revives a victorian experience as much as it does a locomotive. And anyhow, as mentioned above, Prince is much more 'wanted' in 2013

    From what has been written, I get the impression that Paul now wants to see the large england loco experience preserved as much as the locomotive, the only way this can be done is to get it running.

    Most people prefer Palmerston, because of the aformentioned victorian experience.
    The answer to why not the ALCo is just the same, as much as I would love to work on overhauling it.
     
  9. DJH

    DJH Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Graduate Engineer
    Location:
    London
    A very tough decision indeed. Prince in steam for the 150th I imagine will be the priority but as for Welsh Pony I don't know. I guess a lot of it will be dependant on finding additional workshop space at BLodge during the restoration particually with larger garratt repairs being done there as well.

    Welsh Pony in steam would be good but likewise I can fully understand just doing a cosmetic restoration.

    Be interesting to see what results.

    Regards

    Duncan
     
  10. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Thanks Billy - I was hoping my daft suggestion would encourage people to post more details of what is actually proposed.

    There is, however, an alternative way to bring back the large england loco experience and that is to build a new one. But if Welsh Pony is to be restored I hope a better way is found to display what will then be the last unrestored England (Princess) in a more suitable museum, and with a tender.
     
  11. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,476
    Likes Received:
    198
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Project Manager
    Location:
    South Wales
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Think its a great idea, two Englands for the FR and one for the WHR! lol
     
  12. 40044

    40044 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sunderland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    On the other hand I often wonder if Princess could not be cosmetically restored to original (cabless and side-tanks) condition for 2013 ? Or have there been structural changes that preclude this?
     
  13. TonyW

    TonyW New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    0
    More to the point, what has changed the FR Heritage Group's view on this? For as long as I can remember they have said that WP (and Princess) must not be restored as they contain so much original fabric.

    I'm puzzled as to how the "large England loco experience" differs from what Prince/Palmerston could provide. I'd challenge anybody without intimate knowledge of these locos to spot the difference that slightly bigger wheels and slightly bigger cylinders make.
    I'm happy to be corrected, but I believe the tender currently with WP came from Princess, and WP's tender is now behind Linda (much modified).
     
  14. 48DL

    48DL Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2008
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    North Warwickshire
    Tony, If I remember correctly from my source, the reason for the change of heart is that the dreaded 'tin worm' has got such a tight grip that cab, tanks and boiler is a lot of rust held together by blue paint, so its a ' restore or rot' situation.
    I hope it/he/she is restored to working condition, my choice of finish would be 'open cab' (not very practical but it looks so good from the picture I have seen of its twin, Little Giant)
     
  15. irishjig

    irishjig New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Has Been
    Location:
    cyberspace
    Perhaps a Large England with a heritage external appearance, but with improved innards, e.g. a superheated boiler working at a higher pressure, would provide a practical alternative in service to the overworked Blanche (and, in the future, Linda). This would avoid the expense of double-heading, which the Small Englands necessitate. The current boiler seems to date from 1915/16 and was condemned some 70-odd years ago, so that's definitely a start again job. Which parts of the existing loco can be re-used or restored would, I think, depend on what comes to light when a total strip-down and inspection is undertaken.
     
  16. SillyBilly

    SillyBilly Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Penrhyndeudraeth
    This is true and it could be built to an origonal outline, however rumour has it there may be potential funding allready available only for a overhaul of the Pony. I believe that the display of Princess at the moment is spot on, everyone ho visits the railway is able to see the loco that started the narrow gauge steam traction development.
    Only one possible reply to that, first word begins with an F and second an O.
    That would be ridiculous, if you're going to remove old metal, you might aswell make it run, especially the amount that would have to be removed to put that plan in to action.
    Yes, but as I'm sure you know they'd been swapping tenders around for years beforehand, infact since they first arrived.
    That would be ridiculous as far as preservation of heritage experience is concerned, I doubt that without massive alterations to the whole design you could get an England to do 8 carrs. Blanche is only overworked because Linda has been out of traffic for 6 years, soon Linda, Blanche and even Lyd (supposedly) will be available as mid-traffic engines.
     
  17. David Bigcheeseplant

    David Bigcheeseplant New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    8
    How much of Palmeston was retained when it was restored.

    David
     
  18. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    No great hurry but Princess looks so wrong without a tender.
     
  19. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    277
    Personally id like to see a working replica of the original FR double fairlie.
     
  20. weltrol

    weltrol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,694
    Likes Received:
    191
    Next time I pass through Porthmadog, I'll call in.
    IF there is a suitable receptacle easily visible, it will receive a suitable donation.

    I have thought for a long time (when I was young and volunteered out there!) that the Pony was a more suitable engine, as some historians have tended to 'place' the small Englands as Shunting engines at Port, Minffordd and Blaenau, with Welsh Pony, Little Giant and the Fairlies on passenger traffic.

    However, if the long term plan is to have Prince, Palmerston and Welsh Pony as operational engines, then go for it.
    Restored to 'original' open cab outline, but retaining the modifications of larger wheels, longer frames, and vacuum brakes.... maybe.

    If the idea is to have an 'original' condition England engine, then sadly it would have to be a replica, as all the England engines were rebuilt around the 1890's with longer wheelbase steel frames and 2'3" wheels.



    Sadly, I doubt whether it's restoration will be anywhere near it's original purchase price of £1005.....

    Frank N.
     

Share This Page