If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Waverley 06/09/20

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Britfoamer, Sep 6, 2020.

  1. wazza588

    wazza588 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    948
    Location:
    yarm

    Thanks Stephen - yes very unlucky but I made it back to the car before the heavens opened at least! Also got done at Armathwaite by a minute or two..... just one of those days.
     
    sgthompson likes this.
  2. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,776
    Likes Received:
    2,183
    Location:
    Switzshire
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
    5067, iancawthorne, Davo and 23 others like this.
  3. nige757

    nige757 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2018
    Messages:
    261
    Likes Received:
    1,532
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    kendal
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    45562 seen at Selside Cottages and on the return climbing to Aisgill Summit.

     
    iancawthorne, Davo, acw71000 and 12 others like this.
  4. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    111
    The Waverley 6th September 2020 – Part 2

    The water stop at Hellifield allowed me to look at the schedule and see what lay ahead. Booked to leave Hellifield at 1218, six minutes were allowed for the descent to Settle Junction – booked pass time 1224, with Ribblehead at 1240 and Blea Moor at 1243. The excellent https://settlecarlislesteam.co.uk/ website boasts a veritable treasure trove of performance data (albeit with an emphasis on more recent years) and logs for the northbound climb of The Long Drag measure the climb from milepost 234.5 (Settle Junction Signal Box) to milepost 248.5 (near Blea Moor Signal Box). Fourteen miles separate the two boxes but the vertical height distance is approximately 670 feet (source: Oswald T Wistle on the Dalesman 2019 thread).

    Simple mathematics reveals that if it was possible to cover those 14 miles at a continuous 60mph, the booked time would be 14 minutes, but then of course there’s the matter of a mile or so restriction at 30mph over the viaduct and some distance either side. Allowing for acceleration and deceleration an allowance significantly in excess of 14 minutes would therefore be required, and in that context the first ranked performance of modern times*, with 45212 and 45407 in 2018, double heading with just nine coaches, is nonetheless right from the top drawer with a time of 17m 47s over the record section.

    (*I am not defining modern times as including 1984 – when the late Edwin Altham tore up Ribblesdale with 60009 – but that’s another story).

    Against that context, I would suggest 19 minutes for a Jubilee with 12 on the back was always a bit ambitious, and so events proved.

    After 27 minutes standing at Hellifield, and a further 10 minutes since Alberta had last done any significant work, the green machine probably needed a little warming up and that was perhaps why Driver Cubitt took it fairly gently, meeting the start of The Long Drag at about 53mph. Speed decayed to about 35mph, and I waved to an old friend from the Worth Valley on Settle Station. Although speed continued to fall, the rate of decay reduced, as Galatea began to fight back in her epic battle with the climb. Digging in through Stainforth Cutting, she was not prepared to concede much more, doggedly maintaining speed in the mid-twenties as we steamed towards the Tunnel. In Stainforth Gorge, speed was down a little more to the mid twenties with an absolute minimum of 21mph before 45562’s roar was enough to get the sheep running in the fields once again as she rallied a little, with 24mph on the approach to Helwith Bridge. This battle was certainly not over yet.

    The roar got louder as the pace quickened and by the end of the level section we peaked at 32mph before speed began to decay once again as the 1/100 began to bite back. We passed the forboding mass of Pen-y-ghent, deep in shadow and speed was about 29mph past Crag Hill Farm, dropping to about 26mph as we passed through Horton-in-Ribblesdale. Speed remained in the 23 – 25mph range as we forged onward to Selside and onward, past the limestone escarpments to the east. AS the gradient eased through Ribblehead we passed the station at 28mph before settling to about 26mph over the viaduct. Onwards – nearly there now – but Alberta went into a slip on then points at the entry to Blea Moor Loop, expertly controlled by Driver Cubitt, and still we plugged on. A glance at the stopwatch showed that the fourteen-mile record stretch had taken some 31 minutes and 5 seconds.

    There are 27 logs in the website I referred to earlier, and, ranked in order of time, this climb would be between numbers 25 and 26. However, it is worth noting that there is a cluster of logs of Jubilees on eleven coaches at around the 28 – 31 minutes mark, and so bearing in mind the heavier load we were faced with, 31 minutes and 5 seconds is, I would respectfully suggest, still a respectable, workmanlike performance.

    TO BE CONTINUED…
     
  5. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    111
    The Waverley 6th September 2020 – Part 3



    As we passed Blea Moor box we were running 14 minutes late (1258 vice 1244). We were due into Langwathby at 1331 and out at 1345 (14 minutes to take water) and then into Carlisle at 1417. We couldn’t arrive in Carlisle on time – could we? We had 79 minutes to get to Carlisle if we were to be on time, covering 60 miles, and that included a 30mph restriction through Dent, the Langwathby water stop, and the mandatory slow approach into the Border City.

    We doggedly climbed into Blea Moor Tunnel but shot out of the other end, working up to a peak of 54mph at Arten Gill before slowing for Dent. Once through the restriction, the Stanier music was turned on once again and on we went to Rise Hill Tunnel. We burst out of the other end, accelerating at 50mph, swept through Garsdale at 57mph with a long and respectful blast on the Stanier hooter, before reaching line speed for the first time of the day – 60mph over Dandry Mire Viaduct. If they ever film another Carry On Film, surely The Moorcock Inn has to be a prime location contender?

    On through Moorcock tunnel – scene of a frightful accident over a century earlier, and over Ais Gill Summit at 52 mph and 15 minutes late. The deficit increased marginally, as we passed Kirkby Stephen 16 minutes late, but then it started to come down – 14 minutes late through Appleby and 13 down as we stopped at Langwathby, having been treated to good views of the northern Lakes off to the west beyond Penrith. There must have been some fancy footwork with the watering up front, for we left only 8 minutes later, now just 7 minutes down. An on-time arrival at Carlisle would require us to cover 20 miles or so in just 25 minutes – surely that was out of reach?

    We set off in a determined fashion and crossed the meandering River Eden with swans gathering on the shallow banks as we took advantage of the favourable gradients most of the way to Lazonby. Speed dropped a little as we carried on through Baron’s Wood but was back at or near the permitted maximum (a phrase oft used by the late Mike Notley)as we swept across Armathwaite Viaduct, with a minimum of 47 over our final summit of the outbound run at Low House, before a fast run down to Carlisle.

    As we curved round the long right hander into Carlisle station, I made it 1416, the minute striking 1417 as we ran into platform 3. Real Time Trains may show 1418, but my I phone clock still showed 1417 as we came to a halt. We had made up all the time and there were big smiles and a joke about being 15 seconds late from Chris Cubitt as he strolled down the platform. Alberta had been left in expert hands, though, for Mick Kelly had climbed aboard ready for servicing and the southbound run…

    TO BE CONTINUED…
     
  6. ribble

    ribble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Thanks Henry.We got a pretty good view back to Appleby from this position,it did look to be in sun most of the way but there was thick cloud further south in Mallerstang
     
    Julian Jones likes this.
  7. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    111
    The Waverley 6th September 2020 – Part 4



    A quick chat with Mick Kelly up front and I was back in my seat, now at the rear of coach 10 of 12, in more than good time for departure, again allowing me to take stock of what lay ahead. Again, with acknowledgement to Oswald T Wistle’s calculation, the vertical distance from Carlisle to Ais Gill is about 1,000 feet.

    How might that be visualised? Well, a Mark One is about 63 feet long. The twelve mark ones in the train would be a total length of 756 feet. Add say another sixty odd feet for Alberta and that takes you to about 820 feet, leaving almost another three coach lengths spare…So, if you want to visualise the climb to Ais Gill from Carlisle Station, it’s the equivalent of a Jubilee and 14 or 15 coaches stretching vertically into the sky. Put another way, it’s about the same height from the ground as The Shard in London (the tallest building in the UK) and about 300 feet taller than Canary Wharf Tower.

    With our feet most firmly on the ground (well, carriage…) we left Carlisle on time and out through the twisting maze of lines and junctions until, on to the S and C proper, speed increased from 19mph at milepost 307 to 28mph at milepost 305 with a classic Jubilee roar as Alberta found her voice.

    Milepost 304 roughly marks the end of the first three miles of climbing and the start of a near level mile or so, past Cumwhinton and on to Howe and Co. Sidings. We passed milepost 304 at 30mph, accelerating up to 39mph by the end of the mile and on to the next three miles or so of climbing up to Low House Summit. We dipped to a minimum of 35mph on the climb but were soon racing away downhill, and onto Armathwaite Viaduct at 54mph. We touched 63 mph in the dip before Lazonby, with 59mph through the station itself and 61mph at milepost 291 for the start of the pull up to Langwathby. The long gradient reduced us to about 48mph at Langwathby (now 31m 10s from our start at Carlisle) and we passed milepost 287 with the deep roar from the Jubilee clearly audible even ten coaches back as we climbed the 1/330 to Waste Bank Tunnel. We flew through the site of Culgaith Station at 58mph, down to 52 at New Biggin but back up to 58 by Long Marton before speed started to reduce in readiness for the stop at Applieby, which was reached in dead on 44 minutes from Carlisle – a start to stop average over the 31 miles or so of about 42mph. Pretty good going for a Jubilee with 12 on. Was she now nicely warmed up for what lay ahead?


    TO BE CONTINUED…
     
    ragl, iancawthorne and green five like this.
  8. blink bonny

    blink bonny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Location:
    northumberland
    Dodging the sun and almost dodging the rain at Shotlock Tunnel & in nice light at Waitby on the return.

    'Alberta'-(11)-Shotlock-Tunnel-fbook.jpg 'Alberta'-(34)-Waitby-Common-fbook.jpg
     
    60017, Fulwood Flyer, 68923 and 18 others like this.
  9. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    111
    The Waverley 6th September 2020 – Part 5



    A glance at the schedule showed that twenty five minutes were allowed from Appleby to Ais Gill, with nineteen of those for the fifteen and a quarter mile “Blue Riband” record section from Ormside.

    46229 Duchess of Hamilton holds that record, with her epic run on 14th August 1993, with 16 minutes and 14 seconds on the record section (having got to Ormside in 4 minutes and 28 seconds, thus completing the whole climb from a standing start at Appleby in 20 minutes and 42 seconds.

    There are 41 logs for Appleby – Ais Gill. Only the top eight recorded times of under 25 minutes from Appleby (albeit several logs of fast runs from the 1980s and 1990s are not (yet) on the website).

    Alberta is clearly in fine fettle, and she clearly had top notch crews, as West Coast (and other TOCs) always provide, but realistically, she could never compete with the big class 8 pacifics. So, within the logs on the website, was there any precedent for a Jubilee taking 12? Yes – Leander on 5th June 2018 with a time from Appleby to Ais Gill of some 36m 28s. Time on the record section was 31m 2s.

    The best Jubilee time on the website was also from Leander, with eleven coaches, on 13th July 2019 with 27m 25s (22m 31s on the record section).

    I would suggest these two runs would be the fairer benchmarks.

    So, how would Alberta compare?

    We took 5m 9s to the start of the record section (mp 275) which we met at 52 mph – a good start.

    Analysis of the performance graphs shows a similar pattern which rarely sees much variation and reflects the gradient profile – speed steeply up to Ormside, steady decline to Griseburn, rallying to a peak at Smardale, a long decline through Kirkby Stephen and Birkett Tunnel, a revival on the easy stretch at Mallerstang, and a dropping off on the final miles to Ais Gill.

    Today was no exception, with a minimum of 30mph at Griseburn, 44 at Smardale, 31 at Kirkby Stephen, 28 at Birkett Tunnel and MP 264, 37 at the end of the mile of easier gradients, 28 at the climbing summit and about 30 by the time the tenth coach passed the summit board. Our overall times were 31m 24s from Appleby and 26m15s over the record stretch. While we lost time against schedule, for the reasons already expressed I would characterise this as a good climb.

    Yet mere statistics cannot do justice, I suggest, to the drama and excitement of that half hour. The anticipation as we passed over Ormside Viaduct, the feeling of willing Alberta on as she plunged into Helm Tunnel, the relief as she accelerated on the easier stretches. The beautiful views of the North Pennines bathed in sunshine as we passed Waitby Common, the syncopated beat of 45562 echoing from Waitby Rock Cutting. The sense of perseverance as she dug in through the cutting before Birkett Common and the feeling of delight that the assembled gallery at Greengates had sunshine for the passage of Alberta with a rake of maroon stock. The surge of power as Alberta was let loose on the final 3 miles of 1/100 at Hangman’s Bridge, the goosebumps as the decibel level went up; the showering cinders and dark grey clouds of exhaust as the fireman piled it on for the last heave up to the summit. It was a marvellous half hour and one that would have barely seemed possible, given national and world events, even three months ago.

    Today’s run was a tribute to those of RTC, WCRC and many others who made it possible, to the individuals who used their skill to coax the very best out of Alberta.

    As I finish writing this piece, I have also seen some of the wonderful photographs and videos taken of today’s run which provide a great memory of today. I’m sure there will be many more. They too deserve praise.

    I dedicate this account to the memory of the late Mike Middleton. May he rest in peace.

    END.
     
  10. 5098

    5098 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,614
    Likes Received:
    862
    Location:
    Wetherby
    The Jubilee roar frightens the sheep at Gallansay...

    upload_2020-9-7_1-37-18.jpeg
     
    60017, 68923, 5067 and 27 others like this.
  11. JDTTRAINS

    JDTTRAINS Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    500
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Secondary Education
    Location:
    Bedfordshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Barkston Ash, Gargrave, Dandry Mire and Greengates.
     
    ragl, 68923, 5067 and 19 others like this.
  12. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    2,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    Just a brief thank you for a splendid report. It was a pleasure to read a post from a new contributor who is appreciative of the geography and challenges of the route, who obviously enjoys steam and understands what is and is not possible. I really enjoyed it and am looking forward to the next one.
     
    ragl, sunstream, simon 6233 and 7 others like this.
  13. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    111
    Thank you indeed for those kind words - in fact I drew much of my inspiration from your reports, and those of one or two others. I do understand your reasons for avoiding main line steam at present and to be frank this was very much a case of dipping my toe in the water. I have to say I was impressed with RTC's level of Covid - mitigation and passed comment to this effect to my steward (Les) and the tour manager before I left. Of course, everyone's circumstances are different and for many travelling now is not a reasonable prospect. Given your witty time travel comments on the other thread, you may care to know that I did consider inserting a comment to the effect of "Trip to Barnard Castle, anyone?" at the point in the narrative where I was describing the view across the North Pennines from Waitby Common, but I felt it would have detracted from the steam experience I was describing! Let's hope that real events next year regarding the Covid situation improve to the extent where you feel comfortable having a coffee (or should that be ice cream in your case?) over some performance discussions on a future trip - I would certainly welcome that...
     
    Bulleid Pacific and 26D_M like this.
  14. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    2,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    I hope that next year brings a breakthrough allowing me to return and look forward to a chat and an ice cream on a sunny day at Appleby - perhaps I’m asking too much (with the sun)!
     
    26D_M likes this.
  15. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,019
    Likes Received:
    2,313
    Yes very enjoyable read @Julian Jones. My comment is that the NR computer's point to point times for the Dalesman and Waverley are really a great work of fiction. That's the case even with a class 7 but amplified with a 5XP.

    Probably a realistic northbound schedule would be 24 or 25 mins from Settle Jn to Blea Moor and maybe 12 mins in from Howe and Cos to Carlisle. So yesterday Mr Cubitt borrowed a bit on the climb, halved the water stop and took back 7 mins recovery on the run in. On that route, especially on a Sunday, the point to point times don't really matter as long as you approach Carlisle in your slot. A decent run with that loco and that load.
     
  16. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    111
    Thanks for the kind comment. Yes - I entirely agree and of course schedules are designed with recovery time for that purpose - it's a very fair point.
     
  17. Oli15

    Oli15 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Some fantastic pictures and videos from yesterday!! Great to bump into so many familiar faces at the lineside.

    My contribution from Waitby also for the record.... https://www.flickr.com/photos/oli_g_15/50314892033/

    I think it has to be said a special thanks have to go to West Coast. To now boast a green single chimney jubilee renamed and renumbered as Alberta, charging down the S&C on a complete rake of maroons is nothing short of preservation perfection!!
     
    ragl, 26D_M, sunstream and 9 others like this.
  18. Britfoamer

    Britfoamer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    1,434
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chemist (semi-retired)
    Location:
    Within 2 miles of the ELR
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My contribution from yesterday, didn't get steam with sun, or sun with steam, steam photographer's curse! P1120644.JPG P1120645.JPG P1120649.JPG
     
  19. 3ABescot

    3ABescot New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2019
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    Herefordshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  20. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    3,362
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, Cumbria
    @Julian Jones Great write up and I'm glad you like the web site. It's great to hear that it is of use. :) I have the gpx from another passenger who is also on this forum, so in time it will be added and give some further insight.

    Here are a couple more shots from yesterday, at Selside Shaw northbound and Waitby Quarry on the return:

    [​IMG]
    A green Jubilee on the Long Drag

    [​IMG]
    Milepost 267
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020

Share This Page