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V4 2-6-2 No. 3403

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Foxhunter, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. gwralatea

    gwralatea New Member

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    oh absolutely, I'm not for a minute saying they were unpopular. More that they were a bit flawed for where they were used for a few years in the 1940s, which is what people seem to want to recreate, whereas the York and GE boys who evaluated them before the rest of the class was canned thought they were the bees knees. A bit like the Clan project taking the name of the first of the class that would have been built for non-Scottish work to show what was supposed to happen next, it might be nice (again not my loco or trainset, I've got enough standing orders) to recognise that they were nearly the go anywhere fleet the B1 became and build one that (if it must be named) doesn't immediately scream Scotland because the two they actually built ended up there like orphans of the storm.

    Of course, and in passing, I'd book seats the first time it ran on the WH! I'm not remotely anti-Scotland (in case it looks that way) I just think it would be nice to nod to where the wings of the class were supposed to spread to, had the world been different! Basically I think there's permission to think about pretty well the whole LNER naming convention and indeed route mileage without being limited to a Scottish connection.
     
  2. 2392

    2392 Member

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    Wouldn't that name turn the V4 into something of a "Turkey..........?":eek::Googleit::Hissyfit::Resistanceisfutile:
     
  3. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

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    Am sure 3402 had a high pressure boiler but only for months, I don't have any books on it... And, in that condition, they would have vastly improved secondary routes.
     
  4. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    You are correct. Because the first two went to the WHL, there is a belief that’s what they were designed for but, had the war and Gresley’s death not intervened, they would have been built in large numbers. The RA4 route availability would no doubt have seen them on the GE and in Lincolnshire.
    I believe it was Norman McKillop who said they were superb locos built like a Rolls Royce but to do a job where a Ford would have been adequate. The LNER eventually got its Ford in the shape of the B1
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  5. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    There’s nothing in John Clay’s book on the subject and as the boilers were made of thinner gauge steel to save weight but with a high nickel content to work safely at 250psi, it seems very doubtful.
     
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  6. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    Always worth a look on here https://www.lner.info/locos/V/v4.php
     
  7. 62440

    62440 New Member

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    Quote attributed to A F Cook by F A S Brown
     
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  8. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    I don't think I've seen anything said about where they're intending the V4 to run. If it's roughly equivalent to a B1 in power, that makes it 5MT, but with wheels a bit smaller than a B1 or a Black 5, so limited in both load and speed for main line running.
     
  9. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Methinks perhaps Mallaig beckons. :)
     
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  10. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    There’s a bloody big thing called a P2 to finish and run in first!! :)
     
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  11. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

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    It quotes a design plan of 300 psi, so this may have been pre war planning- perhaps in contemporary papers/early plans? And I guess a 300 psi boiler will have been to a higher maximum. He'd dabbled with the Hush Hush boiler Perhaps war austerity put paid to this or it wasn't feasible but could be an interesting puzzle to solve as to what ifs...
     
  12. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I wonder how reliable this place is. I'm no expert,but I found two errors just glancing through it. Firstly it maintains that 3402 had a copper firebox that needed replacement in 1945 due to stay breakage. I do not think that anyone could produce a copper box in the 1940s with a thermic syphon. It was of couse a steel box which suffered from soft Scottish water
    and inadequate (?non-existant) water treatment and was replaced with a new copper box sans syphon. The article also says that they were used on the Fort William line from 1943 to 1949 before being replaced by Black 5s and B1s, after which they were transferred to Eastfield shed for Lowland freight services. Eastfield may have redeployed them at that date but there was no need to reallocate them there as they were there already. Eastfield shed supplied most of the locos working on the West Highland and although FW had a small allocation of locos the V4s were never based there to my knowledge.

    You are both correct. It was Norman McKillop who is reputed to have said that the V4s were built like a Rolls Royce and A F Cook who stated that yes they were but were built to do a job where a Ford would have done.

    Peter
     
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  13. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    3403 BSA Bantam. :rolleyes:
     
  14. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    The V4 was undoubtedly more capable of coping with the demands of running on the more level parts of the West Highland Route than the earlier K4. From this we shouldn't assume that the Moguls could not run in a satisfactory manner, anyone who has experienced 61994 at work over the years will appreciate that these engines could run. Some crew members did find them somewhat challenging to fire, but not all, again there exists an article where a fireman was witnessed to be in difficulty and the travelling inspector simply put his hat over the falling gauge and the difficulties ceased to be noticed and the engine performed in a very satisfactory manner though I appreciate that similar stories concerning similar observations are not uncommon. I suppose that it could be said that you consider a task to be difficult, challenging or in some way beyond your capabilities then that is how you will experience it. If the indicators of failure are not available to you, you might just surprise yourself.

    When the V4 is built it will have the front pony truck design revised to a version of that fitted as an improvement on the V2 and that designed for 2007, which will improve the weight and axle load distribution because the weight shifting nature of the swing link truck will be removed which should make 3403 more sure footed so to speak. The originals were considered experimental engines so rather like the P2 they are very much unfinished business but reading what little is available concerning their performance while trials were being carried out, the engines performed very well. The Haymarket to Perth route loading was originally set at 250 tons but by the second train of the first day the load was 263 tons with 320 tons on the return. Later the load reached 384 tons (10-5-41) and this was handled well. On the GE section loads of up to 495 tons are reported. The type were also popular on stopping trains from Glasgow to Edinburgh when in the hands of Eastfield men because they delivered a rapid acceleration away from each stop.

    The K4 was largely a design produced from a mixture of standard parts created to meet the demands of a very particular environment. It was not a general service design unlike the V4 but this did not prevent them being used on occasion where their high tractive effort and power were considered useful. In construction terms the V4 was in advance of the Mogul making use of fabrications and special alloys the use of these allowing the weight of of 70 tons 8 cwt to be achieved; quite an achievement. Regardless of the name I am looking forward to one being built and I wouldn't mind the seventh K4 being built either, it was rather regretful that The Great Marquess never ventured into Devon and Cornwall.
     
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  15. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    As someone who has experienced 61994 several times over the years at the sharp end I would question your assertion that it could run. Above 45 mph it starts to get lively and by 55mph the riding becomes very unpleasant. That is on an engine that is well maintained as most are in the preservation era. Imagine what it was like in the old days with a high mileage K4. They were hill climbing plodders and worked well on such duties, but as for running, you do the neither the loco or crew any favours by pushing it above 50 mph.

    Peter
     
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  16. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    True enough .... but is a P2 ever likely to be cleared to run to Mallaig? :D
     
  17. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

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    Thermic siphon, first patented 1928. Coppersmiths were then extremely talented and is considered a lost art.
    Steel fireboxes in UK were mostly used in Austerity, when copper was sadly needed for bmbs.
    WW2, After WW1 when short and WW2. They tended to be short lived, having a life of 5 years. Hence the huge scrap prices in the 60s
     
  18. gwralatea

    gwralatea New Member

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    provided nothing collapsed under it, I reckon something that size could clear it's own path :D
     
  19. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

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    Must say the V4 is far more exciting than the behemoth. Then a K3, what about a J50, and a J39? If they keep on we could make 3 sets of running gear for 2-8-0 02s or, wait a minute?!?!? How about a Garratt with the design flaws modified I'll get my coat.
     
  20. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    But how about getting it back....
    Could see the reason why a thermic syphon would have been attractive to Bulleid on his upside down tapered boiler and it may have been a bit of a copycat move putting one on the V4 cant see why else there dont seem to be many anecdotal accounts of a thermic syphon 'saving a firebox' when the water fell too low but that was indeed one of the benefits of having them...
     

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