Under restoration/Never steamed in preservation

Because engines that were designed for low speed work were designed to haul the heaviest possible loads (which we do not usually go near for heritage railway work)?

 

Power might be needed on a heritage railway. Speed never ever!

PH

 

Popular with whom? - it's the general public who pay to keep heritage railways running, not enthusiasts.

 

General public with small children (either their own or grandchildren) to be specific. These family group also tend to like to see bright colours and preferably a range engines in different bright colours (makes a big impact on sales of souveniers) - hence the recent resergence of pre-nationalisation liveries and colourful industrial owner liveries.

To those under the age of 55 who can't remember BR steam the policy of coating everything in black is getting very boring. From the non enthusiast prospective once you have seen one black engine you have seen them all etc.

 

I don't disagree that running bigger machinery MAY cost more money than necessary but it is only 'may'. It depends on a lot more than size. A big saturated boiler is probably going to be a cheaper option than a smaller superheated one, as an example. Big wheels = less revs per mile = less wear and tear is another. In designing a loco to do a job, the prime requirement is to match tractive effort and boiler capacity to the work to be done.

In terms of new build, though, the capital cost of the build is not as clear cut as it once was so keeping everything to a minimum size isn't going to be a huge financial gain, especially when most new builds aren't going to be done on a commercial basis.. Having a 'one off' set of cylinders made, including patterns, isn't going to vary much with the size. and the same can be said for the wheels and a lot of the scantlings. Boilers are perhaps a different matter, especially with regard to the firebox.

 

Sometimes we forget that enthusiasts of one form or another are likely to make up a large proportion of the volunteer base, which is equally important as cash income. Without them, there are no train services, maintenance, restoration, or indeed anything else, as the whole operation is totally uneconomic if staff 'cost' is fully taken into account! If there is nothing of interest to volunteers at Railway X, they will gradually drift away to Railway Y or leave railways altogether, and then it's very hard to replace them. So I think there is always room for the 'glamorous stuff' even if it is not always quite as practical as a Standard 4 tank.

 

Both of you have "hands on" experience. It shows!

PH

 

A certain railway director of my acquaintance reckoned that, amongst the general public, there was a premium on colourful liveries, and also on named locomotives - on the grounds that people would come back wanting to see if "ABC" was running, which they remembered from a previous visit, but less likely to remember that "123" was running. All of which helps explain why we always tended to run 9017 with nameplates, even though it is strictly not quite prototypical, and also helps explain one or two fictious liveries we run (notably Bluebell; and also Fenchurch, which shouldn't simultaneously be in Umber livery, numbered 672 and yet carry a name. I couldn't see why we didn't paint her improved engine green, but I suspect there might be branding issues with another Terrier on the railway! But that's by-the-by...). Certainly "Bluebell" is a very popular loco with the general public, judging by how many casual snaps of the "my partner standing next to engine" type that get taken, relative to other engines.

As for size, and ignoring the practicalities of what is actually needed to shift the trains: amongst some sections of the public (not just enthusiasts), it is good to have at least one big, impressive loco, that has the "wow" factor. But particularly amongst smaller children (say those in very formative years - maybe aged 3 - 8 or so), then big engines tend to be very intimidating, both in bulk and their capacity for sudden, unexpected loud noises. Certainly, if you are looking to welcome a visitor to the footplate during a layover, especially young visitors, there is a world of difference between being on, say, the C class and being on a 9F or Bulleid. Not that that is an economic argument for running engines of a given size, but it is worth remmebering that what impresses enthusiasts of a certain age isn't necessarily what impresses the general public. And even enthusiasts have different views, often based on age: I get the sense that the "any colour you like so long as it is black" thing is most entrenched in those who remember mainline steam in the 1950s/1960s. Amongst younger (but still passionate) enthusiasts, I get the sense there is more space for a variety of disparate interests.

Tom

 

i did say (to paraphrase) "popular.....with enthusiasts"...the general public would be attracted by just about anything if it's presented right....and in any case a railway can be popular in the sense of attracting volunteers to work there, it's not all about money.

 

I think you are making two mistakes here: firstly to assume that "most enthusiasts today" are old enough to remember that period (i.e would probably have to be in their mid fifties at least); secondly that enthusiasm necessarily springs from what people remember from their youth.

I'm somewhat younger than my mid fifties, but still consider myself every bit as much an enthusiast as anyone else. I know people half my age, who were hardly even born when British Rail existed, yet who are extremely knowledgeable and passionate about railways.

And secondly, my formative memories of railways were in a sea of third-rail electric during the BR blue-grey era. If your theory held, that's what I'd want to preserve, yet it leaves me pretty cold. (The period of retrenchment on our railways between the mid fifties to the mid eighties I find a singularly depressing period of our railway history, so hardly something I'd like to see commemorated!) My personal fascination is with the pre-grouping era: not because I remember that period, but precisiely because I don't remember it!

Tom

 

As a general rule what the public wants from any attraction is friendly staff, clean loos, somewhere safe for the kids to play, something nice to look at, and a decent cup of tea. In addition to that what they want from a heritage railway is clean coaching stock, preferably with compartments but certainly with hinged doors, and seats in line with windows which actually open. They want information in layman's terms and they want it given promptly in the event of any kind of delay or service change. They also want a steam engine on the front of the train. If there must be a diesel - and the public are surprisingly tolerant of diesels so long as they at least get to see and photograph a steam engine and so long as the diesel is suitably 'old fashioned' in appearance, which means not painted in NSE or raspberry ripple livery - then it had better be capable of heating its train on cold days.

 

that's true, but at the end of the day no Preserved Railway is there for the benefit of the General Public. The Public are there as a means to an end, and that is so that the Guys can enjoy themselves in a railway enviroment that they have created, or in someone elses.

 

Well I'm an enthusiast in my late 50's so I ought to be your target market RG. But I, and most of my contemporaries that I have worked with over the years, have next to zero interest in non-steam traction. After all, they were responsible for the demise of our addiction, and are pretty much the antithesis of all we admire - shapeless box, no visible moving parts, no skill required to operate and non-stop irritating droning din, even when stationary (but apart from that I quite like them ). OK, I'd stop to look at a Deltic, or Western maybe, but I'd never pay to ride behind one.

Now my wife has little interest at all, but what she definitely doesn't like are 'boring black engines with no names'. For her, size and colour DO matter, and I believe other non-enthusiasts think similarly.

So yes, I believe it does pay to have at least one flagship 'namer' running if possible, and no, I don't believe there is much of a market at all for 'mixed traction' on a regular basis.

 

just because you have no interest in this period doesn't mean the same applies to everyone. I'm also in my late 50s and steam was history before I took any notice of Railways. I got my jolllies with Westerns Warships et al and ,whereas I'm a preserved steam addict, I have no objection to seeing the odd diesel or three. I don't see how you can be holding diesels responsible for the demise of your addiction as you would have been around 13 in 1968.

 

As far as the general public are concerned size does matter, but so does clean seats in good state of repair and working toilets on the trains.preserved railways these days have to compeate with so many other attractions,
Now getting back to the thread proper, why are there still a lot of engines that have still not been restored its simple, owners not having the funds to restore them, but not wanting to let them go, Railways where your engine does not fit in with what the railway voluenteers want to restore, so wont work on it, so it never gets started, and finally politics

 

it's a miracle that any of the Barry contingent were saved and the majority have been restored. I don't think any sizeable number will be scrapped in the future and most will eventually be restored.
How many have been restored but are now effectively derelict again is another matter.

 

Absolutely, but if you can't provide the brews, loos, and views then you won't last very long.

 

that's the name of the game... just like a lack-lustre football team would find it's gate falling whereas it would rise if they signed a new striker from ManU or got through to the 8th round (I know nought about Socball) of the FA Cup in a blaze of publicity...you have to give the folk what they want..

 

The requirements for a successful (ie: attractive to enough joe public and volunteers to be viable and grow at least a little) railway seem to me to be:

1. Clean and tidy without too much unpleasant clutter or peeling paint anywhere, and that includes the loos. (I don't think the "scrap line" is much of an issue provided it is a small proportion of the total view visible to the general public. Some quite like to see the stuff waiting to have the magic wand waved, but it shouldn't be 3/4 of a mile of a 1.5mile line).
2. Steam locomotives, of which the majority should be green (GW, BR, SR or LNE it doesn't matter) with name plates. Others can be interesting or historic liveries. Red and Blue also work, but black should be used sparingly.

3. Diesel usage kept to VERY clearly marked events or services that are run in addition to the steam services, If they can serve to deliver people to a steam engine then that is preferred. Diesels can be pretty much any colour, but better if green when used as a Thunderbird. Majority of the public will avoid them on a railway that they expect to be steam, so use intelligently.

4. Vintage carriages available as part of the mix. Otherwise on the standard gauge older (non-formica) MK1s, especially the various "K" varieties are best. Must be clean inside and not tatty, with the cleanest windows you can manage.

5. Other things to do...a museum, viewing gallery, refreshments, circular walks, children's playground, picnic areas, interesting surroundings etc etc etc couple this with a train service that allows people to get off, wander around and get back on through the day, or go somewhere interesting that is far enough to make it feel like a journey (the seaside, a famous castle, very lovely scenery etc)

6. Accessible. Public transport especially rail links, are becoming more important, and good car parking (preferably free) is essential.

7. Make sure that you run events, or carry out projects that keep the volunteers engaged and motivated. If they enjoy themselves, so will the passengers.

 

Sounds very much like my local choo choo the KWVR, apart from all their engines are black and have been as long as i can remember. (the nice green one isnt stricly a KWVR loco)