Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Leander's Shovel, Oct 20, 2007.
Could it run on the HS1 at 100mph as suggested in the Railway Magazine?
It *could* but it would never happen, its never going to be fitted with the right signalling equipment (doubt it could be done) and if you ran with the line cleared of all trains and without signalling... well its pretty obvious why thats a non starter.
I believe that L&CR have placed a 140mph minimum top speed on all passenger movements on HS1, in order to prevent Eurostar traffic from being inconvenienced and to ensure that it truely is used for high speed travel. Freight on the other hand is permitted to run much slower than this (but probably at night and when no engineering work takes place).
Another major issue that would stand in the way of RM's story are the gradients. Up to 1 in 35 with brapid changes. Water sloshing backwards and forewards at reasonably high speeds ain't a recipe for a happy boiler. If it were ever to happen I'd buy a ticket though... odd story I thought.
Another major issue that would stand in the way of RM's story are the gradients. Up to 1 in 35 with brapid changes. Water sloshing backwards and forewards at reasonably high speeds ain't a recipe for a happy boiler. If it were ever to happen I'd buy a ticket though... odd story I thought.[/quote:3c4piv99]
Is there not also a different signalling system on HS1 compared to the normal railway, thus meaning if Tornado was to be granted permission it would mean shutting the whole of HS1 and I can't see LCR or NR for that matter agreeing
Cloud 9 im affraid,
1:40 gradients, and quick changes from up hill to down.
TVM430 (in cab signaling) non compatible with ANY steam.
Long Tunnels which i dont think would be suitable.
75mph and 186mph trains dont mix ethier.
And finally wouldnt be allowed into LSPi anyway, as diesel is banned so im sure steam would aswell, and before anyone mentions it the domestic EMT platforms have modifications to the building to allow for diesel, im refering to the train shed.
Really does make me laugh this sort of rumor, like 34067 supposedly running on section 1 before opening, which incidently would have been the only time it could have run.
Quite right JR, agree with what you say. Some people seem to think steam has a right to go anywhere, which is rubbish, it has the privilege to go where it can, and thats a big difference. Methinks the RM is guilty of sloppy journalism on this one...
AS one of our stories is being critcised here (and maybe in the wrong forum), I'd like to respond, even though this is Danny's section.
Firstly we did not say it was to happen. We said it could happen. That means it might or might not, and will hinge on safety, practicality, compliance and money to name a few things. We called it audacious. It is - 100 per cent. EWS want to run freight over HS1, but no one is knocking that as a daft idea, and that won't be pathed at 186mph, will it?
Running steam, even if only once will need time and money to achieve.There's no denying that, but there are people in preservation with the money to back such projects. We suggested running at 100mph to create a modern preservation record. Remember, if Tornado is to be certified for 90mph on the main line, it has to achieve a 10 per over speed (99mph). And if and when the time comes, that loco with its roller bearings could also be a potential contender to run on HS1.
Secondly, this is not a sloppy piece of journalism. Quite the opposite. The piece was thoroughly researched and written by someone who used to work for Network Rail, and was in fact in charge of the Eurostar account, so is perfectly acquainted with the possibilites of what can and cannot be achieved, along with the safety issues involved. Also said person is a volunteer fireman on at least 2 hertiage lines and a guard for the West Coast Railway Company, so is clearly more expert in a number of areas, and has access to professional railwaymen at the sharp end. Had it been a completely crackpot idea, we would not have devoted a half-page to it.
Thirdly, rather than publish and be damned as some publications do, the author spoke at length to a number of loco owners, rail safety consultants, senior operational railway managers and London & Continental too, to get a cross-section of views and opinions. All agreed it was a tall order, but might well be achieved. No one dismissed as completely unworkable which is the implication here.
We also said such a movement, should it be allowed would need to be in non-tunnel sections and would need TVM430. We never mentioned using St Pancras either. As for the gradients, 1-in-35 has been quoted here with water sloshing around a boiler, yet steam happily goes up the Lickey at 1-in 37.75 (no fractions!) and at Foxfield at 1-in-19. And is the line such a severe switchback as suggested. I think not. Clearly some re-reading of the RM story is needed as posters here appear to have made assumptions.
Back in November 1990, I was one of a group huddled in an upstairs room at the York Railway Institute to hear of the plan to build an A1 Pacific. Even though I was impresed with the presentation and credentials of those concerned, I was very sceptical then, just like some of you are now for this. But having watched the A1 project progress year-by-year, I have immense admiration for the sheer professionalism of everyone who has worked to make the A1 a reality.
There is similar professionalism and expertise to make steam on HS1 happen too. Preservation has consistently defied its critics and achieved the impossible because its supporters are focussed and determined enough not to take NO for an answer. Let me cite the building the A1, new cylinders for the Duke of Gloucester, restoring a Class 86 to run on main line, ditto a Deltic, rebuilding the Welsh Highland, running a Prairie in Poland and Hungary, etc. All seemed impossible at the time - all have been achieved.
Rather than knock them, surely better to support them and find a way forward to achieve the impossible yet again?
And Danny, thanks for allowing me to pinch a bit of your forum space if only to open up the debate - which is what it's all about. Oh, and we'll be delighted to take your ticket money, should it happen ! :smt050
But surely there is a difference? The majority of these problems may have seemed impossible but with enough money thrown at them could work, anyone can build an A1 if they have enough money to do so. Similarly buy an 86 and get it mainline, or a Deltic. And it wasn't as if the WHR had had huge housing estates built on it preventing forward passage, the route was virtually all there just without track.
But this is about more than money, it would involve virtually shutting down an entire section of line used by the highest speed trains ever to run in this country due to signalling and speed problems. When the 86 returned to the mainline the WCML wasn't shut down for half its length (I assume to do it you would use the Kent section) to allow it to be used. The only hope there'd be is if there was engineering works going on closing the route, but as the route would be partly dug up does that not foul up that idea? Not to mention the safety case of running under an engineers possesion. I also think you'll find the majority of freight would use it at night, and if you want to run a railtour through Kent at night you may as well use the classic lines for the amount it will be noticed by anyone, as it'd be a damn sight cheaper.
Yes, it could happen. I could take 21C123 from London to Vladivostock if I really wanted to. It's a perfectly plausible idea since the opening of the Channel Tunnel to run it there. It doesn't mean it has a cat-in-hells chance of actually happening, for far more reasons than I care to list here. If I were to post that on here as a news story, I'd be (rightly) pilloried.
The point about the sloppy journalism was the idea of taking a rumour and turning it into a news story. I haven't yet had a chance to read it, hence the use of the term idea (and if you note I have not commented directly on anything written in the article) as I was literally only going on what has been written on this thread.
If you tried that I reckon BV would end up on the ballest at the point where the rails get a little further apart...
I dont think its RM's job to write stories about events that could, technically happen but realistically never will for a whole host of obvious reasons. What the article says will mislead people with less knowledge of HS1, the requirements of cab signalling etc into thinking it could happen. It wont, for there is no reason good enough to go to the bother of doing it.
And freight on HS1 is entirely practical because it was designed with it in mind (at least partially - heavy slow trains arent good for the superelevated curves) - and they'll operate using 92's the same way they do through the channel. Not ground breaking stuff.
Tell you what, I'll be first in the queue... and a bottle of champagne to you from all of us a Stean Railway should it come off.
Tell you what, I'll be first in the queue... and a bottle of champagne to you from all of us a Stean Railway should it come off.[/quote:289i7yre]
I bet your sub had fun with all those abbreviations.
chrishallam wrote in "1T57 Ideas?":
Getting back onto the subject of the tour! How about booking the A1 as a thunderbird as well as Bert's 5? Not as authentic, but think of the publicity after the last BR loco fails to have the newest mainline loco take its place!
I posted the following text in response to the aforeascribed:
Silly suggestions aside, surely here is the absolutely ideal opportunity to launch 60163 next year in style!
Given the already considerable interest shown in obtaining a seat on the “1T57 Re-enactment” – even at the (once again) grossly inflated prices 40 years on – there must be considerable potential for an additional train to run over the S & C on 10th August.
A recent update from Darlington Locomotive Works on 1st December advised that ‘Tornado’ is now almost 95% complete, and, furthermore, is due to steam for the first time in January 2008, currently with the intention of entering regular service in September 2008, provided that a further £55,000 of the total cost of almost £3m is raised in addition to what has already been donated and pledged.
Am I, perhaps, not the only one in thinking it does seem a great pity that a mere 3 weeks of running-in and proving might separate the loco from making an ever bigger impression at its long-awaited debut?
Many do feel quite strongly that the plans for “1T57” may well eclipse the 40th commemoration of the REAL end of steam (that occurred one week previously), but here is a chance for the event to redeem itself in most people’s eyes. Think about it …. the last of the old era heralding in the first of a new era…. meeting head-to-head, hauling two separate trains on one of Britain’s most scenic main lines. What would the media (INCLUDING "Top Gear") make of THAT?
All just food for thought, so let’s not get bogged down at this stage in the anorak discussions already plaguing the "1T57 Ideas?" thread on what types of rolling stock to use. After all, WHO really cares about the coaches, for, as “24C” succinctly observed, we would all be there essentially for the STEAM and this could be THE EVENT of all events!
Personally i think 1T57 and Tornado would be best kept seperate - one is a historic nod to the past, while the other is a modern milestone, a brand new mainline steam loco which is sure to attract a large amount of attention from the press. Tornado wouldnt benefit from being associated with the 1T57 train (hopefully it will generate enough publicity all by itself) and with a modern A1 having nothing to do with the historic event i cant see the anniversary railtour benefiting either. I can see why you've suggested it but hopefully both events can do without needing the other for a 'leg up'.
Tornado can run the IT58 in September! \/
1T58 - excellent. Tornado will be the perfect antidote to post end of steam celebration blues. I think that is why they are taking so long to 'warm her up'.
"The End" and "The New Beginning" - a marketer's dream - of course the two should be seen, say meeting at Hellifield or Carlisle, on the same day.
What a coup that would be!
1T57 Liverpool - Vic - Hellifield - Carlisle & Return
1T58 Darlington - Carlisle (run round triangle)- Hellifield - Preston (run round Faringdon triangle) & Return
I think a meet up on the day may be difficult - stock wouldn't be a problem, but getting enough loco crews might be.
I wonder if Tornado could be positioned in a platform somewhere where it could be photographed next to the main train (IT57 on 11th August) at a auitable stopover point?
Hmmm... there could be a case for that at several points along the route with various locomotives.
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