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Tornado

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Leander's Shovel, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Whatever else you may think, it's verging on bizarre to suggest that Tornado has been cosseted from Day 1. Actually it could be argued that a little bit of cosseting might have alleviated some of the grief over the past 12 months. In fact, this locomotive has been encouraged to undertake many 'tours de force' on the main line and performed competently in each instance. This it has done virtually 'out of the box'.

    And then there is Merchant 18 that spent last summer pottering along between York and Scarborough on an extended running in period that has actually proved to be the making of the engine and its later performance. Yes there are some on here who were impatient for it to be let loose on something more challenging from Day 1 but events suggest that West Coast got this one exactly right.

    As @Spamcan81 has already said, the whole movement can get very tribal/political and that's not really to the benefit of anyone.
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Part of the furniture Friend

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    I think that they have already been shared by several on here. Bullshit might baffle brains but I'm not that brainy.
     
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  3. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Priming is a carry over of water in liquid form into the valve chest and potentially cylinders. Liquids, as apposed to gases (e.g. steam), are not compressible, so unless the water can be expelled either through the ports at exhaust or through the decompression valves or taps (cylinder drain cocks), the piston at the end of its exhaust stroke will hit a massive obstacle. The results can vary a lot, but can include blowing off the cylinder cover and possibly part of the cylinder casting; damage to the piston and its loosening on the piston rod; bending of the piston rod; Damage to the small end and bending of the connecting rod. The valves and valve chest are not involved as, although the valves are moving, the space between them does not vary.

    If there is a serious water carry over you might get away with it, but at least some of the above is a possibility. Damage to the combination lever isn't on the list and it is difficult to imagine how it would be damaged, at least from this cause, and certainly difficult to imagine it without any damage to any of the above. But I'm open to an explanation.
     
  4. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Resident of Nat Pres

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    One of the great successes of the A1 Trust have been their 'reach' beyond the ranks of enthusiasts to the general public. This has been in no small part due to efficiency of their publicity operation (which in turn has been assisted no end by the professional skills of some of their leading people!) This may have lead to a few things:
    1. Jealousy from other organisations without such a publicity capability as to why the A1 is getting so much coverage.
    2. The publicity people issuing statements which may make even their own engineers cringe, or feel the need to say something when in fact there is nothing solid to be said. Remember - those writing the publicity are probably not engineers and the engineers nay have better things to do than write of check press releases!
    3. The success of publicity and the resultant jealousy meaning some look for the loco to fail and then take great delight when it does.
    The reaction to the alleged 'inconsistencies' in public statements are simply going to reduce the incentive to provide information, which is perhaps fine for those who prefer the freedom to present their own explanations without interference from official statements!

    Steven
     
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  5. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    I think the issue here is, No. 2 is a dangerous situation for the A1SLT to be allowing. They've issued a statement, in which they've decided which situation cause the damage to the combination lever.

    Now firstly, that could harm relations with the the hosting railway of that photo charters, their crews and the charter organiser - not just with the A1SLT, but perhaps to any other locomotive owner who may be asked about hiring their engine to that line or for such charter events. A more tactile way of discussions could have been held with the railway and charter organiser before using this statement, of which is appears at least the latter was not aware of having any blame being placed on their event until the press release itself.

    Secondly, as being discussed on here, it is of general consensus that priming of the locomotive would not cause the damage to the combination lever. If that is the case, then who had signed off on the PR department laying blame to this before fully investigated? I don't think jealousy is playing a part here in regards to discussing the situation, but instead a real desire to figure out the root cause before any more dirt is thrown at possible innocent parties. Afterall, it's not just the sharing of knowledge here that's at stake, but also the reputation of other organisations.

    That brings me round to Point No. 1 and No. 3. Of course, some organisations will be jealous of the PR machine that the A1SLT weild. It's evidence in itself, the popularity of the loco and the income stream financing both itself and another new build on the way. That success however, doesn't mean they should be above the ability to have their information questioned nor should they be able to issue information which hasn't been confirmed by the other parties involved.
     
  6. philw2

    philw2 New Member

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    I think it's important to ensure that PR people don't acquire too much authority in engineering reporting.

    Their moral stance seems to be lower than that of an engineer's and if given too much leeway, an honest report soon turns into BS. and the standard of the reporting is damaged long term..

    Their real job is to put 'bums on seats' not to reach out to serious investors who contemplate a big financial contribution to what may be a bit of a risk..

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
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  7. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    Now this I cant let stand.

    If you read back you will see there was a lot of both speculation and informed input on what went wrong.

    The conclusion was and remains a serious of unfortunate events led to the failure. It is now well understood what happened.

    You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to ask you, do you have engineering experience or qualifications to back that opinion up?

    If not, it is my opinion you are ill qualified to form said opinion and in my opinion your opinion is dismissible.

    Why do I say this? Because from an engineering perspective (which I am qualified to take) one static valve can cause the failure we saw and in all probability it did.

    What worries me most of all is not that people take ill informed opinions, that is de-rigour ATM, but that people interested in Steam locos don't understand the very basic principle of mechanical failure.

    We have all played with a paperclip fro too long haven't we? Where one paperclip suddenly becomes two individual component halfs of a paper clip?
     
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  8. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    I’m not an engineer but I do understand that 150 tons of machinery, held together with nuts and bolts, certain parts exposed to extremes of temperature and the whole lot subject to vibration known in no other sphere, will occasionally fail. To fail twice may be because all is not well or may be just unfortunate. The true cause will be found and dealt with. My main concern is as above, the Trust immediately blaming a priming incident which is highly unlikely to have caused a bent combination lever.
     
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  9. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    Just to be explicitly clear, I am refraining categorically from commenting on the latest "failure" and focussing entirely on the Ebor Flyer incident.

    I think its presumptuous of anyone to suggest this latest incident is related to the former.
     
  10. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    RAIB are also seeming these days to be more willing to either issue a safety digest, or not investigate further - especially when there is no suggestion of general lessons. Given some of what was in the report of the Tangmere incident, I suspect the initial RAIB analysis showed some significant questions to be answered.

    Edit - posted before I'd seen @5801's post. I defer to his greater knowledge.
     
  11. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    Poppycock!
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I am so weary of the tribal back and forth in railway preservation.

    We need to build bridges and break down perceptions of each other in this industry, if this industry is to survive.

    I would rather break bread with everyone and find reasonable common ground than to comment on either side of the fence for which I have no direct influence or knowledge.

    Honestly, I think we all need to take a step back and ask if we’re being fair to one another here.

    Hearsay reigns far too much in our industry.
     
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  13. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Sorry Simon, but no. I know where you're coming from and applaud the attempt. When the loco sat down last year and the A1 Trust took some - a lot of - stick about what was said, I defended them on here because what they were saying made sense in engineering terms. But this time it's different. The Trust has made a statement which every engineer on here, and there are a lot of us, knows does not make sense. They made the statement. We have questioned the validity of this statement. Having made it, the Trust can now ignore the questions, correct the statement, or explain in more detail how the problem happened the way that they have stated.

    I am not opposed to the Trust, nor jealous of it. I am involved in the management of a group which owns a locomotive, and know the frustrations they can bring, and the satisfaction to be derived by overcoming the problems. But if you make a public announcement, it has to have the ring of truth or an explanation of how, despite a lack of that ring, it is the truth.
     
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  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    My question would be: has anyone here actually contacted the trust directly to ask the question?

    Otherwise this is just a cyclical debate on an Internet forum with no outcome other than frustration from all sides.
     
  15. std tank

    std tank Member

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    The original statement said that a bush in the combination lever had been damaged, causing a motion pin to run warm, but, unfortunately, it did not state which bush it was.
    Now, in a water carry-over, resistance or shock is felt at the piston, which is then transferred to the piston rod, onto the crosshead, onto the anchor link, onto the union link and pins and finally onto the lower bush of the combination lever. There are two weak points which will damage before any steel component. These are the bush in the anchor link and the bottom bush in the combination lever.
    True or false?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  16. Eightpot

    Eightpot Well-Known Member Friend

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    I'd go along with shock being applied to the piston - rod -crosshead - connecting rod - crankpin, but unless the piston valve itself has suddenly seized for no apparent reason, where is the cause for damage to the combination lever, union link, anchor link (drop arm) and their associated pins and bushes?
     
  17. std tank

    std tank Member

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    The anchor link is connected to the crosshead, is it not. The shock is transmitted through the items. It does not take much to damage yellow metal. It is, of course, only a momentary shock, not a seizure.
     
  18. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Probably the most balanced view on here so far. My problem is not with what's happened but the way the Trust, that has always been open and honest, seem to now be less than forthcoming. A lot of us who have put in money, some substantially more than me I'm sure, deserve better.
     
  19. Eightpot

    Eightpot Well-Known Member Friend

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    I don't believe that you have grasped my point. The piston valve, combination lever, union link etc. (unless seized somewhere) are free to move, so why should they suffer damage? Not forgetting that there is, in normal operation, a reversal of movement at each end of the piston stroke.
     
  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I don’t disagree entirely with what you say.

    However, knowing some of the individuals in this group and also being acutely aware some of us have vested interests in both the group in question and in “competing” groups, I am asking if a public dogpiling on the A1 Trusts statement on a public forum is ultimately for our and their greater good.

    I have already made my own comments privately and asked for clarification. Those seeking their own clarification might do well to do that.

    I have no truck with any of the parties mentioned in this thread - in fact I’m involved with two groups mentioned here and I offer up that I cannot assure everyone of a completely unbiased view.

    I can assure everyone that I simply want the industry to be best it can be.

    We do not know who we will be working with in the future - why speculate, without talking to the party involved?

    I personally would prefer to not assume the statement is anything other than a brief report back to the public.
     

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