Torbay Express 2016

18 year old diesel and Correct me if I'm wrong first working of a Class 66 to Kingswear.

 

By todays, and the 65 year olds standards it IS modern and it IS NOT what he paid for or planned for his retirement celebration. The Customer is King. He will tell all of his friends and potential customers of the rubbish experience and put off potential customers. I guess when mainline steam is no longer viable because the non enthusiasts who make up the lager part of passenger numbers have walked away, then you may be open to change. You cannot cure an alcoholic until they say "I am an alcoholic."

 

If I was booked on a Torbay and I found Western Champion on the front I would be quite happy but I wouldn't if I found a 47 (or a 66).

 

You seem to be of the opinion that your way is the only way and others' opinions are worthless, so carry on. My credentials are not as glowing as yours, simply 30 years in preservation and now volunteering (as in working without pay) at the sharp end of main line steam operations.
One thing I do know..unfortunately, given the vagaries of steam locomotives, there is no way of guaranteeing the availability of any particular locomotive at any given time. And no amount of consultants will ever change this.There is no economical way (for anybody) of providing back up locos in the event of failure. We work long hours in often Dickensian conditions to provide locos for tour operators, and in the vast majority of cases we achieve this goal. But, of course, this is not news, and nor should it be.
So, when it goes wrong, it's news, and people are disappointed. We are disappointed too, we don't like letting people down. But is there a different way of doing things, given the lack of main line steam engines, the reluctance of customers to pay a levy, if you like,to provide back up (even if it was available) in the event of a failure? I'm not so sure.

 

A backup loco means two locos in steam, two lots of coal, two support groups, two FTRs, hence twice the cost. One support crew goes home.
Rob

 

66s aren't modern , Class 68s and 70s are much more modern then them.

 

That's a bit irrelevant, a diesel is a diesel its not steam

 

But you wouldn't be happy if you expected steam. Western Champion means nothing to most passengers on trains like the Torbay Express. The magic is steam along the sea wall at Dawlish and Teignmouth not a diesel irrelevant of what it is. I was on the railways when Warships, Westerns and Hymeks came on the scene a ruined West Country steam. I would want to see that 55 years later.

 

Here is another thought as I suggested doing the FTR exam 2 days before the tour. Assuming the support crew know what they are doing, and I am sure they do, why not inspect the locomotive immediately, or the following morning to allow some sleep, to ensure that all is well and that nothing untoward happened on the previous day's tour. Now that's got to be a possible solution although someone will tell me the engine has to cool down or something. Anyway, open for debate.

 

And there is part of the problem. I'm by no means having a go at anyone, simply using this quote to illustrate a point.

Some would be happy with a 47, others with a 52, some, I suspect, would be happy(ish) that it ran at all, regardless of what was up front, and then again, most booked with the sole thought of a special day hauled by steam.

So it just ain't possible to keep all the punters happy.

My take, for what it's worth, is that the average non enthusiast punter expects steam if thats what they have booked, even if it's shoved or assisted by diesel, so any additional expense retaining a heritage diesel in reserve to take over from a steam loco which has failed its FTR, or is unavailable for any other reason would not be worthwhile. The majority of enthusiasts on these services would have so many different opinions that again, any one answer would likely annoy more than it pleased...

 

Make that...I wouldn't want to see that 55 years later

 

The problem is that there seems to be no rhyme or reason to locomotive failures. All could be well one day, the next not so good. It's not usually major failures that cause the headaches but, for instance,problems with injectors, which might well have worked perfectly the day before, deciding not to play today. Or perhaps a problem with the electronics which mainline locos now have to have, something perhaps quite minor which, unless diagnosed quickly, can cause an engine to be declared a failure. This can happen even after an engine has had its FTR, as happened the other week on a trip.

I think it's often misunderstood, and indeed underestimated, how multiskilled the modern day mainline steam loco engineer has to be. Not only has he the traditional workings of a steam engine to keep up to scratch but now has air braking systems and the electronics to worry about as well. From first hand observations I can attest to the fact that this is no easy task!

 

Got me all stressed about my next trip to London on a vintage 14 year old pendolino now

 

I said this before on a thread a couple of years ago when 5029 failed its FTR before a trip over the Welsh Marches and was replaced by a class 67. I was hooked on that trip and got and all I got was a £20 credit note. I didn't go on it as a 67 doesnt interest me at all. Pathfinder told me that the train wasn't cancelled so they wouldn't give me a full refund.

The fault in my view in this case and the Torbay Express was clearly with Pathfinder for not providing what was advertised. Whether this is their fault or not is irrelevant to me as a passenger but unfortunately as long as people accept this state of affairs nothing will ever change. I've decided to vote with my feet and not travel with Pathfinder again, but I know this will make absolutely no difference over than make me feel better.

 

For passengers Saturday was clearly a disappointment, and even with the credit note would have cost more than double a standard return, and taken twice as long. In my view 'fault' is not really relevant but what we do clearly have is a main line steam 'system' which is in a very sticky situation. The considerable reduction in main line engines and trips this year has many causes, but the more cancellations, postponements and diesel substitutions that there are then the more people will be reluctant to travel. A number have said that prices are too low, but they are already at a premium level - with the notable exception of Vintage Trains I'm not sure that a single promoter is offering regular trips for much under £100 for a standard ticket. This is more than almost any other leisure product, and if the product does not deliver then people will not book. I'm afraid that Sunday was one disappointment too many for me and I will go back to heritage lines where the chances of getting what you pay for are far higher.

 

As I see it, Al, the problem last weekend was not that 46100 failed, but what TBX did about it - or perhaps what they didn't do.
1) they (apparently) didn't contact passengers nor post any updates on social media on Saturday evening when they knew that the loco wasn't available. Even though one part of the organisation was trying to arrange a replacement loco, someone else should have been telling as many people as possible "we've got a problem, we're trying to get Tornado, but it's possible we won't, in which case the train will be diesel-hauled; check our Twitter feed for the latest status."
2) their customer liaison on Sunday morning sounds pretty inadequate.
3) they didn't offer sufficient compensation or refunds.
From the various accounts above, it sounds as though TBX aren't as "switched on" as RTC, SD and VT usually are when this sort of last minute problem occurs.

The various suggestions for ways of mitigating or avoiding such problems in future are generally applicable and probably belong in another thread - there's bound to be one (or more) on this topic already.

Just one comment - @chessie1 probably remembers this better than I do - in the old days of Steam Dreams and Daylight Railtours using locos based at Ropley shed, a set of "pre-FTR" checks were done before the official FTR examiner turned up, sometimes as much as 24 hours before, giving time for some faults to be fixed before the exam (though not things like mud-hole doors, mentioned earlier). Furthermore, the locos involved (CanPac, Bodmin, 73079) were often in use on regular MHR trains the week before and would be stopped for minor maintenance and perhaps a wash-out several days before the main-line trip, so the loco's operating condition was very well known. I don't think any of the current mainline loco operators are in that position, with the possible exception of the Carnforth pool in high summer (when the S&C is open)

 

There are 500 of them. No small wonder that in 18 years no railtour operator has requested a 66 to haul a train to the PDSR. (BJ)

 

Hardly when they claim 66s are modern....

 

So you expect a volunteer crew to sit with a loco for an extra couple days to do an ftr which is time limited two days early, only for the time to expire and the cost of another ftr day before the trip... hope you enjoy paying extra for that,,,,