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Ton up Tornado

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by MarkinDurham, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

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    That is always the case, halfway the stroke in a 2/4 cylinder locomotive and at 1/3 and 2/3 of the stroke in a 3-cylindetr version.
    Kind regards
    Jos Koopmans
     
  2. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Or maybe what was said was 'Take us to 83mph, we need a plus 10%' (on 75mph)
    but what was understood was 'Take us to 83mph we need a plus 10% (as well, so that's about 90)
     
  3. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to remember where I came across reference to this trial. It was in English, it might have been on line, while looking for more information on the design than was contained in my book on compound locomotives. Thanks for the link to the German article - a translation is called for.
    The results of these tests should help enthusiasts and others that might be interested to get some sense of the advantages an eight-coupled locomotive holds over a larger wheeled Pacific.
    The P2 should hold such a high advantage over other available types it could become the default locomotive of choice where route considerations are not a factor.
     
  4. Dag Bonnedal

    Dag Bonnedal New Member

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    The German interest in the NSB cl. 49 was mostly a continuation of the long standing controversy within the nationalized DR between the Wagner led Prussian dominant group advocating simple expansion locomotives (for the mostly flat northern Germany) against the designers from the local state railways in the mountainous southern part of Germany advocating compounds (e.g. Bavarian S3/6, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_S_3/6).

    Thus the tests were mainly focused on the comparison between high degree superheat, simple expansion versus compounds. Not so much on the six coupled versus eight coupled.

    The tables at the end of the German paper show that the NSB locomotive was not only more efficient at low speeds (as usual for compounds) but also at quite high rpm. This indicates a high degree of internal streamlining.

    There is a very good Norwegian book about the Dovre Giants (http://en.nmj.eu/1008349.html?___store=de_en&___from_store=default), but it has only a brief 5 page summary in English.

    From the book the following facts from the German tests can be summarized:

    The tests were carried out during the period May-August 1940. At first a few steaming deficiencies were observed; the Krupp design had only a single chimney (while the Norwegian original had double), the damper openings were slightly small and the fire bars were designed for inferior Norwegian coal. The steam temperature was measured to 413 C (775 F). Front end adjustments were made at the DR Gruenewald test facility.

    Road tests were carried out with the regular Berlin – Wroclaw (Breslau) express train, 336 km, scheduled timing 4 h 47 min, average 70 km/h. Normally these trains were run with the cl. 01 pacifics. (cl. 01; 109 ton, 130 km/h. cl 49; 99 ton, 100 km/h). The cl. 49 could take a 665 ton train over the route with an average speed of 76 km/h (gaining around 25 min over the schedule).

    The German drivers reported the cl. 49 as very shure footed, aiding the rapid accelerations, adhesion weights; cl. 49; 62 tons, cl. 01; 59 tons (only 5% difference).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  5. green five

    green five Resident of Nat Pres

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    Here is a date for your diaries folks:
    [​IMG]

    The programme will be on the iplayer for everyone to watch from 15th May. The makers are hoping for a national screening as well.
    Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
     
  6. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    The simple vs compound debate, not helped by the character and influence of Robert Garbe even though this was quite a few years earlier. The cl. 49 are very similar in some aspects of their design to the works of Karl Golsdorf, compounds built with a very close eye on the weight but capable of very good performance. It was a pity that the 49c was hamstrung by the inferior exhaust system fitted by Krupp. Even so the design of by far of the bulk of the machine was remarkable in many ways. Given what we know of the double Kylchap system, the humiliation one of these machines so fitted would have inflicted on the O1, though it might have delighted true locomotive enthusiasts, it would not have influenced either the DR or DB to reconsider their locomotive design policy. the parties on either side of the compound vs simple question were (and are) very entrenched. Even so the Maffei Pacifics hung on because simple expansion engines could not be designed to equal them for weight and power output.

    I know about the Norwegian language book. I think that Camden still stock it. I need to obtain a copy. Many thanks to you for posting further.
     
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  7. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think something like that would only be in the national interest. A BBC2 or BBC 4 job maybe? Although if it was up to me I'd quite happily pull 'the one show' just to give it the airtime it deserves!
     
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  8. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    The Dovregubben was more potent than the 01 pacific in spite of prof Nordman telling otherwise.
    The Norwegians scrapped most and put one in museum 1958.
    The irony is that the best and last used steam locomotive in Norway was left german very austerity war locomotives baureihe 52.
    Last regular run 1970.
    Morale of the story:
    4 pieces of 1.6 meter wheelsets are better than 3 sets of 2 meter.
    But 5 wheelsets of 1.4 meter are more usefull than 4 of 1.6.
    Compounding saves coal and boiler maintenance.
    The best british loading gauge locomotive would have been a 9F with two inside compound cylinders and Kraus-Helmholz truck up front and flanged middle driving wheels.[​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
    242A1 likes this.
  9. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    Well there's an interesting idea! Deserves a thread of it's own, I think...
     
  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    :Jawdrop:Err ........ok. So stuff your V4 and get on with this baby.
     
  11. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    Hello Steamage

    Might be fun and will You please start it?
     
  12. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Led to believe is also available Freesat 956 or Sky 978 according to another post from another forum.
     
  13. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    Indeed it is, programmed to record!
     
  14. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    One for iPlayer for me...
     
  15. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Just watched the program on BBC1. What a great program and well worth watching. Just a shame it wasn't shown across all regions of the U.K.
     
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  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    i-Player saying "available soon"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08rb16k

    Tom
     
  17. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Just watched it on our regional programme. Very good, recommended. It didn't show the brake test but apart from that it did the job well.
     
  18. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    Have just watched it too. Probably the best programme about trains I've ever seen. Plenty of technical stuff for the railfans, and lots of other snippets for ordinary folk. Well done to all concerned.

    Why oh why was she routed through Darlington on the way south though? Talk about taking things to the wire for the 100mph attempt...
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Agree that it was a good programme, well worth watching. No cliches or other typical reporting comments and dumming down. Plenty of anxiety as to whether it will make it. If we hadn't known what finally happened it would have been nail-biting. Even SWMBO stopped looking at her laptop and watched the later bits!
     
  20. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agree with that, a first informative documentary from the BBC, watched it on Sky955. Interesting to see all the data recording equipment festooning the engine.
     

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