The Ultimate Livery Debate...

We obviously have different criteria for riding behind different locos. Mine is primarily for sound recording and livery doesn't affect that but I can understand those for whom other factors are the reason they part with their hard earned.

 

The below is from a post in the 5690 thread, this forum likes a good livery debate but I don't actually see one discussing livery to kick it off with...


Barring other factors (such as not wishing to over use the loco / reliability and of course customer loyalty to a specific loco), if livery does indeed influence business ?

I openly admit it does for me, 6201 does nothing for me in red and whenever it's return is, I won't be that bothered either if it still is, that reflects that I haven't ridden behind it in more than 15 years.

On the other hand 46115 / 70013 / 34046 / 4464 / various 5MTs upfront however Ive done as passenger and photographer a number of times, and even though it's repeat business I like it's appearance when I look at it (from the window at speed or the platform or along it's route)... so livery is an influence to me, my wallet as well as my camera...

3 near identical Jubs in 3 different colours is probably a good a test as any.

I'm not a 1968 or bust type, i'd love to ride behind a 21C167 in Southern green on the mainline someday...indeed colour (to me) means business... I remember chasing a Swanage trip a few years back, and took a taxi to Swanage .. the taxi driver (a normal with no apparent railway knowledge) described the "fantastically looking blue streak one those guys have done up and looks the part"... pretty easy to guess which loco he was talking about... I reckon an unstreamlined Bulleid in malachite would attract good business on the mainline, where are 4472 in Black I reckon the public just won't attach with.


So Does livery make a difference ???

 

21C167 would be nice and of course authentic for the loco. Malachite on a rebuild I'm not so sure about. The Wren OO models so adorned looked pretty naff IMO. An A4 posing as 2509 in Silver Jubilee colours on the main line would please me no end.

 

For me the answer to that would be mostly no, though I do admit that 60163 has appealed to me more in the last 2 years while it has been in Express Blue than when it was in Apple or Brunswick Green, and this will probably be the case in the future. Apart from that however, in my eyes, a steam loco is a steam loco and is worth seeing regardless of the livery it is carrying.

 

BR grey, grime or weather beaten are the best liveries. I have to say the condition 60010 was in at Shildon I thought was great, same with 34016 and as for 92214 that was something else. I understand that 46233 is going to be weathered for her last appearance before a repaint. Now that will be a sight to see.

 

Wonderful, just how I remember them!

 

The advertising material used by tour promoters and heritage lines would provide interesting research. These are clearly intended to attract custom so the illustrations used are presumably chosen with that in mind. Are black locos featured as much as their colourful bretheren?

 

As a passenger I wouldn't be bothered.

As a photographer I am bothered.

As an enthusiast I don't like it.

As someone who doesn't pay to maintain a mainline steam locomotive my opinion is irrelevant.

 

Rather a silly debate, even sillier than most about livery as it concerns riding behind, which means you can't see the loco most of the time unless you are one of those idiots wearing goggles who hogs the windows in vestibules in a most antisocial manner. Of course they may invent some sort of wind resisting paint that allows locomotives to travel faster so I guess that might attract some. The only time I got a really good and lengthy view of the loco at the head of a train was in a 20 coach train QJ hauled train in China where I was so far behind the loco it was possible to think you were in a following train as it was constantly in view for ages! Lineside photographers might be more concerned at a loco's livery, particularly if it is out for the first time in it, but being pulled by - get a life!

Those answering 'yes' to question 1 would be those who, in spotting days, would shout 'boo' at a diesel and 'scrap it' if it was a loco they had already underlined in their ABC. Those answering 'yes' to question 2 would be better watching rather than riding. At least answering 'no' to question 3 demonstrates a love of a loco rather than some sort of football fan loyalty to a livery. The least juvenile answer must be a 'no' to question 4. Sorry but I must just be one of those pre 1968 types who can't suspend their disbelief enough to be fully appreciative of efforts to recreate the past. So pretty much like Neil who has just posted while I was writing this.

 

There can be more than one reason to like or dislike a particular livery on a particular locomotive.

One is authenticity. Did that locomotive ever have that livery when it was in regular service (totally authentic)? If not, did other locos of the same kind have that livery (less authentic)? Or is that livery entirely alien to that class?

What about cleanness? In BR days would the loco have been in clean shiny black or grubby black?

Another is familiarity. Do you remember seeing the locomotive or others of its class in that livery in your younger days (whether when it was in regular service or earlier in preservation)?

There's also the intrinsic aesthetic appeal of different colours. As a child, I was excited to see a Stanier pacific in maroon for the first time. As an adult, I like some colours better than others in general, on a steam locomotive or anywhere else. I'm not keen on blue in general and will be pleased when Tornado's blue period is over; but I think Bittern looks marvellous.

L150 is totally inauthentic, but I think it looks good in LT livery.

Traditionally many express passenger locos were red, green or blue, presumably to appeal to travellers. Apart from the LNWR's, not many were black until the days of austerity.

Would "Hogwarts Castle" have had the same appeal to filmgoers if it had been black?

 

I wonder what the liveries of the B17 Footballers would be if they existed today.

 

Well I don't know whether the upper parts would follow the named team's colours [with sponsors logos] but the wheels would have to be pink judging by the colour of footy boots these days

 

A fair chance that the face of the loco - the smokebox - will be black.

Cheers

Alan

 

Steam is steam at the end of the day. My only wish is that there was a bit more variety with liveries as BR black and green does get a bit tedious and fails to represent that there was a time when everything was not Black or green (or brown/grey)


Chris

 

Today, despite the lashing down of typical bank holiday weather, I saw a nirvana in paint...

There aren't that many places where you get the livery and the stock spot on... And with pre nationalisation livery on stock and loco ...

This is what encourages me to drag my family around with me, spending hard earned and getting just a handful of pictures

 

Maybe photographers don't like black liveries as they are harder to photograph? Well, it's true for cats: www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/pets-black-fur-cats-look-good-on-social-media

 

In my view black is a pretty easy colour to photograph for three reasons: it stands out from the trainset (there aren't many black engines hauling black coaches), it looks good in sunshine and it stands out in the landscape. Red is my least favourite colour as it tends to blend in to the coaches and the landscape (depending on where you are).

Green is pretty good for my reasons for black, as is blue.

 

Actually, for me there needs to be a 5th option: It's the carriages ...

Carriages are what you sit in. On a line running a mix of steam and diesel, I will always choose the steam option; but I choose the lines I visit according to the carriages they have in operation. Visually, I find most BR liveries drab, but you don't see the livery sitting on the train. If two trains pulled into station, one with pre-BR carriages and a BR livery engine, and the other with a pre-BR livery engine but BR carriages, I'd get on the one with the interesting carriages, regardless of the livery of the engine.

Tom

 

(Off topic Wet, wasn't it! I don't think I have ever been that wet before on the footplate ...

Tom

 

Very good summary and much in line with my feelings. The only points to add are (1) sometimes you can make a visit to a heritage line and can be both passenger and photographer on the same day, which can be a bit of a quandary and (2) one of the most exhilarating heritage line journeys I have made was a family day out on the Mid Hants taking my (then) young nephew to the Thomas event. 34105 Swanage was making a great deal of noise on the 1 in 60 from Ropley to Medstead. Did I enjoy the sound? You bet. Did I care that it had a "Thomas" face on the front? Not in the slightest!!