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The contribution of Photographers to Preservation

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Sidmouth, Oct 11, 2010.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    People have been decked in the UK for getting in the shot but do you really think that's acceptable behaviour?
     
  2. That's true. And I can do the same. But I can also edit the captured time. I'm not saying you or I would fiddle the numbers but someone with a grudge could.

    Steve
     
  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Easy peasy to edit just about all the EXIF data on a digital shot so in the wrong hands a time stamped image proves nothing.
     
  4. martin butler

    martin butler Member

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    Inconsiderate people are nothing new, it doesnt matter if they have a camera in their hands or not , from my experience it quickly becomes clear who are the ones who are trouble, their the ones who cant read a sign, NO MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC BEYOND THIS POINT, and wander upto the running lines , or stand next to the platform edge as you are running in , even if they didnt have a camera in their hands they would still be a problem its the attitude "i want to do what i want to do" that is the problem when their actions place everyone in danger or does damage to our neabours property , but saying that i have spent time chatting to photters who know the rules and observe them, who know the dangers , so you cant go tarring everyone who points a camera at our hobby as being a potensial problem
     
  5. 73129

    73129 Member

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    I’ve seen photographers get to breaking point at Bournemouth open day with the general public wondering around loco’s. From time to time you would hear someone behind a camera bellow out “ Your in my way”.
     
  6. Hmmmmm. Open day. Open to the public. Isn't the idea for the public, general or not, to wander around the locos? Are photographers not "public"? Did the "photographers" pay more than "non-photographers"? Anyway, what the heck is a "photographer"? Someone taking pics with a mobile phone is a photographer just as much as the guy with £100s worth of kit hanging round his neck and in the box under his shiny ladder. Those photographers you experienced need to loosen up!

    Steve
    (photographing railways, with a variety of cameras, since 1970)
     
  7. 73129

    73129 Member

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    You can blame the halfwits for walking through a limited clearance area on the MHR which caused a service train to stop. Their actions put them self’s in danger and after this event the MHR removed all line side passes apart from MHR staff.
     
  8. 73129

    73129 Member

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    I totally agree with you about open days. I found it very amusing to see photographers getting bent out of shape with the general public walking in to their photos.
     
  9. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    I wonder if any of the 'senior' members have experienced this ... I have, but only at aviation events. A group of younger photographers approach a spot where a senior photographer is on his own. They then surround the single senior photographer and prevent him from taking any shots at all. If you complain they come closer and closer until the threat is clear.

    It last happened to me at the Moth Club's event at RAF Halton earlier this year, but I have usually had better experiences of railway photographers. I do wish, though, that those who have lineside passes would take off their orange hi-vis when they are on the public side of the fence. I have a lineside pass for the WSR ( I used to have one for the Bluebell), so I do understand the temptation, but please take it off. Even when, like the pass for the GCR which costs so much, it's perceived as a status garment.

    Apart from that, I agree with 'WSW' that at public events you just have to accept that people are going to get in the way and be patient, but I also agree with 'David-Haggar' that if railways go too far in discouraging photographers/videographers then they will just have to accept the reduced publicity on sites such as this as a consequence.

    Regards
     
  10. Southernman99

    Southernman99 Member Friend

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    Unfortunately those people who think they can simply sling on a Hi-viz jacket and walk off the end of a platform at any given preserved railway, and I have seen it on the national network. Mislead the general public in thinking they can do the same themselves.

    There was a incident at the SVR 40th anniversay in May of this year. The Bridgnorth loco cleaning staff (who are all PTS competant) walked up the south end of the headshunt and stood on the two steam cranes. About 5 minutes before departure, a gentleman put a yellow hiviz jacket on and climbed over the fence and walked towards us. 3 of us asked him for a PTS certificate and Lineside pass but he ignored all of us and carried on walking. He could see we were all in dirty clothing from the days work and you could tell we were all working members.

    So heres my point.
    If any Linesider encounters a member of staff and is asked to produce any form of permission, please dont ignore them. The member of staff is there for a reason.
     
  11. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    YES ! - and I'll give 3 reasons why.

    1) In 1984 when the Scottish Region trialled the initial Jacabite I asked the ScR representative what profit he expected the railway to make; his reply was NONE. He explained that the train service was a contribution to the area as they knew that a steam locomotive would attract visitors to the area. Some would travel by train, some would travel on the train and all would buy local goods and services which would benefit the community. In this case Railways 0 Community 1 but everyone would be happy.

    2) When the SVR suffered its disastrous wash-out the whole community suffered as the visitors who did not visit the railway did not consume local goods and services; in some cases lack of custom caused many local businesses to fail. Research is increasingly showing that that for every £1:00 spent on the railway a further £1:00 is spent on local goods and services. In fact the latest Steam Railway has an item which shows that the investment of £10 million in the Welsh Highland Railway is now paying back 90% of that money per year into the community as visitors arrive to spend on both the railway and local goods and services - and once completed it is expected that the line will contribute a regular 140% annual return for the forseeable future. Even as early as the 1990s this factor had been appreciated to the extent that local councils funded the nascent ELR in order to re-generate the Irwell Valley between Bury and Rawtenstall and the status of the ELR and its contribution to the local economy is now fully recognised.

    3) A personal experience from last week. As a photographer I was invited to join a charter on the Bodmin & Wenford Railway with recently restored 30120 but as this was a long way from Lancashire I had thought this difficult to arrange. Fortunately my wife was keen to visit Cornwall so agreed to a holiday and I was given 1 day on the charter without restriction. My contribution to the railway was limited to the charter plus spending on catering on the day which cost around £55:00 plus a 2-figure donation to the Crews' Kitty but - more importantly - was the £350:00 spent on accommodation; £60:00 spent on fuel; £100:00 spent on visits to such as the Eden Project and Heligan Gardens and £100:00+ spent on meals. Thus from me the railway gained £55:00 and the community gained 11 times as much BUT none of this would have been spent had (a) the railway not been there (b) the charter organiser had not arranged the charter and (c) other photographers had not agreed to share the cost of charter hire; doubtless the contributions from them also boosted the local economy in terms of goods and services consumed.

    Unfortunately this argument suffers from too narrow a consideration as neither the railway or the community in which it operates can be considered in isolation as both elements are becoming increasingly mutually dependent. Thus the photographer at the lineside may only spend in one area but the mutual dependency means that both will benefit. The railway may simply be the magnet that attracts but without it the community would also suffer so let critics be careful when they castigate the contribution(s) made by photographers to preserved lines - it may be greater than they know.
     
  12. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    Accepting what 'Fred Kerr' says above about the contribution the steam railway makes to any local economy as being true, I still think that photographers should make a contribution to the railway they're visiting and the linesiders should show more consideration to other customers of the railways.

    I regularly spend far more 'in the community' than I do on the railways, but if I don't buy a ticket and a book or DVD in the tourist trap then I take the personal view that I'm shortchanging the railway. If I, and others, can afford to spend upwards of £200 plus petrol for a weekend 'in the community' then £30-40 spent on the railway isn't too much to expect.

    Mind you, this also raises another issue! As the railways bring so much benefit to local communities why is it that local authorities offer so little support to their local railways? The contribution of various Welsh authorities to the WHR is very much an exception, although a welcome one. The local authority at East Grinstead, for example, has done next to nothing for the Bluebell. There is an implied threat in the planning permission for the extension from HK to EG, and there are, I understand, ongoing issues re the the use of the station at EG.

    Still for all that 'Fred Kerr's contribution to this debate is a timely one.

    Regards
     
  13. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    True,

    How many times at the SVR gala in 2008 did 60007 arrive at Bewdley at that exact time just after sunset.. and 5164 shunted on stock.. and 71000 went tender first south and it didnt rain and no passengers were at the end of the ramp and the locomotive stopped at the exact end piece of rail to within 3 inches of it's stopping point and the head lamps had the same flicker, the coal level was the same, the dampness on the body sheeting was the same and and and and and and...

    so as well as fiddling with my camera date and time, I'd need a perfect historical replica to within the inch...

    I guess I'd need to fiddle the the working time table, station and signal box logs and the heads of the staff and passengers too..

    Possible .. Superman did it when Lois Lane died....
    but probably unlikely

    Do you agree ?

    oh and for the ultra purists... the chances of the rods actually being in the same position when it stopped.

    Annoying yes..

    I could attempt to name and shame him though as I think I could "out" him easily enough...

    Does it matter no it's only a photograph and I'm sure plenty of us have had the experience.
     
  14. Jonno854

    Jonno854 New Member

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    To add to certain peoples points in this debate;

    ADB968008, I don't think anyones suggesting that you would change the dates and times or doubts your story, but there are people out there who might do such a thing in order to try to give somebody a bad name.

    I find Orions comments regarding 'younger photographers' disturbing. I would hope that if other photographers saw this happening, then they would step in to help. I do however recall a similar incident at Foxfield being reported here last year. By the sound of it people were too shocked by one groups behaviour to a single person that little was done at the time.

    I agree with 34081's comments regarding freeloading. If i were to spend twenty years restoring a Barry wreck (which I haven't) then i would feel perfectly entitled to photograph it wherever it went without contributing to the particular railway it was working on. I would have paid my dues by the amount of time and money spent on it already. Importantly as a photographer with no high vis, standing on a bridge or on the platform i would look to all intents and purposes to be a freeloader.

    The comment regarding the Great Central pass holders wearing their jackets on the platforms. The gala timetable booklets specifically state that high vis should not be worn on the platform. Perhaps these people haven't contributed by buying the roster on the day. No doubt they feel that having paid a one off fee for the year long lineside pass they do not need to pay again. Those of us travelling need to buy a ticket on every visit - and we need to buy a roster to subsidise the photographers so that we can find out what we want to travel on! Sadly in my experience the station staff do not attempt to enforce the no high vis rule.

    Finally, the idea of a photographers code is admirable. But surely the sort of person being debated here, not the average photographer but the selfish sort happy to ruin everyones experience/photo/temper would be just the sort to ignore such a code?

    JP
     
  15. Axe

    Axe New Member

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    Really? It may be your perception that the local authority at East Grinstead has "done next to nothing" for the Bluebell, but what you claim to be the case is far from the truth.

    Chris
     
  16. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    Pleased to hear it ... and your evidence?

    Regards
     
  17. Axe

    Axe New Member

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    I have no intention of summarising the entire history of the East Grinstead extension project to counter your nonsensical allegation. You raised the point, thus if you wish to pursue the matter further the onus is on you to clarify your claims.

    Chris
     
  18. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    Unless you provide the evidence then my perception is as valid as yours!

    It is a matter of fact that a condition of the planning permission for the extension to Kingscote was that the Bluebell also extend to EG. If not the extension to KC may be lost. It is also a matter of fact that the Bluebell had to withdraw its planning application for the use of the EG station because the local authority objected to the use of whistles at EG. My understanding is that no local authority in the Sussex area has provided funds for the extension to EG, unlike the situation re the WHR. Consequential to this if the Bluebell cannot raise sufficient money for the EG extension it will be reduced to being a SP to HK railway.

    My perception of this situation is that the local authorities in the Sussex area wish to have all the advantages of the Bluebell being an enhanced tourist attraction in the area but are not only unwilling to share the responsibilty for providing the wherewithall but are actively putting in obstacles to its achievement. If you can provide evidence that will contradict my assertions, and better still, provide instances where those authorities provide positive means of achieving the objective of the extension to EG, then please share them.

    Regards
     
  19. Paul42

    Paul42 Well-Known Member

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    Orion

    FYI

    £50k donation for Bluebell extension
    08:00 - 24-June-2010

    A BID to kick-start the fundraising campaign for the Bluebell Railway extension has been boosted by a £50,000 windfall.

    Mid Sussex District Council agreed to donate the sum at a recent cabinet meeting.

    The ambitious project will eventually provide an uninterrupted rail journey between the town and Sheffield Park in East Sussex.

    MSDC and the railway's management believe it has reached a "critical" stage and £3 million must be raised within the next 12 months if the project is to be completed.

    Bluebell asked the district council for help and its pledge comes just over a year after it granted £25,000 for the Imberhorne viaduct restoration work.

    The railway line passes through a former landfill site and much of the money will be used to move the waste to another area.

    This will be carried out by rail to avoid congestion on roads.

    Further funding will go towards new platform facilities at the south end of East Grinstead Railway Station.

    MSDC leader Garry Wall told the Courier & Observer: "The Bluebell Railway is a vitally important part of our heritage and is warmly appreciated by the Mid Sussex Community.

    "Tourism is a key part of the Mid Sussex economy, bringing in more than £240 million to the area each year and when the railway terminates in East Grinstead we will attract a great deal more."

    He said the new link would result in "a significant boost to the retail, hospitality and heritage offered in the town which is much needed in these difficult economic times".

    Mr Wall said the railway had the full support of the council and he hoped that other local authorities, businesses and supporters followed its lead.

    Bluebell funding director Roger Kelley said: "We are very grateful for the council's support in these straitened financial times."

    He hoped the public would support the family fun weekend this Saturday and Sunday with clowns, magic shows, Punch and Judy and other attractions at Horsted Keynes, Sheffield Park and Kingscote stations.

    A regular favourite, the Victorian picnic, will be held on July 2 at Horsted Keynes. Bookings must be made in advance by calling 01825 720800.
     
  20. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    Excellent ... thank you for posting. Are there any earlier examples of local authority generosity and what is the state of the planning application for the use of the EG site?

    Regards
     

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