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Talyllyn Finances

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by brennan, Oct 19, 2016.

  1. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    Robin, in fairness I know that at least some of those local volunteers are unhappy about being called upon to do more than they are comfortable with - especially when the trains they are running are near empty.
     
  2. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Which is understandable, and why Steven's comments are a bit surprising if he feels something can or should be done about volunteers who don't go the extra mile (other than motivation/leadership which always helps). It's a bit like the CoE's dilemma with the wrong sort of congregations (i.e. too old). Trouble is, that is the only congregation they have.
     
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  3. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    I never used the phrase 'the wrong sort of volunteer' - you seem to have assumed that was what I meant. Nor did I state that something 'should be done about volunteers who won't do the extra mile'. My comment was on (and I admit I am a bit of a stuck record on this) those who seem to think it is easy operating a preserved railway in a financially sustainable manner, and that the simple answer is doing less and 'making life easier' and that this will 'make more', whereas the reality is that you simply load more and more fixed costs on to fewer Income earning opportunities if you are not careful.

    I was also suggesting that sometimes a reason for running extra services may be to give better work content to volunteer shifts - @michaelh's post suggests not - at least in some cases!

    I did comment actually that when I was an operational volunteer, working busy trains was part of the challenge and hence the fun - the 'reward', if you like, and hence working obviously unnecessary empty trains is clearly something which is not going to encourage volunteers that their time is being well spent. I suspect that many would not feel it was too much being expected of them if they could see from the passenger loadings the benefit of what they were doing.

    When I have heard others use the phrase 'the wrong sort of volunteer', one of the comments from someone other than me in response was that 'and the wrong sort of volunteer will deter the ones you really want'! Perhaps I should just leave that hanging in the air or simple add 'discuss', but I for one can see how that might be the case! (Incidentally, the context was what appeared to a belief in some quarters - themselves volunteers - that no-one would volunteer simply for the good of the organisation but that volunteers needed 'rewarding' in some way, and building what the organisation did around what the least willing volunteers wanted to do was seen as part of this!)

    @michaelh's comment does prompt the question as to just how poor are some loadings, and how often, on the Talyllyn? If there is plenty of capacity, then some experimenting with trying to discount people on to trains that have some hope of being fuller, and certainly asking why bother running others must be an option (there may be good reasons). As I said earlier, trim costs where sensible and maximise revenue from is what is definitely worth doing, but I suspect the cost saving from cutting trains that never load well, if there are such trains, on a comparatively short line with comparatively small Locomotives will not add up to enough cost saving to provide the full answer. That isn't to say it is ever wise to run services which you know will never load well unless for another reason (running a poorly loaded service to work back well loaded may be an example if the train can't simply wait where the good number of passengers are going to get on, and that often isn't possible)

    Steven
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
  4. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    There is little wrong with the Talyllyn but a lot wrong with Tywyn. It just isn't the sort of place that many want to visit these days; rather isolated on a bit of plain coast with little to commend in the village.
     
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  5. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I remember as a small child (C1970 or so) when we did a holiday trip on the VofR Dad would try & get us there for the morning train as it was cheaper than the afternoon one
     
  6. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    While I don't find Tywyn very inspiring, I don't suppose that it was any better during the late 2oth century, either. The glorious coastal and mountain scenery certainly hasn't changed. Both town and landscape are unlikely to change any time soon, but personally I find the area attractive, and greatly enhanced by the charmingly unspoilt narrow gauge steam railway. It's sad if there aren't enough people who feel the same way; perhaps I could donate some of my railway library, but books too are a declining market.

    Answers to the problem on the back of a plain postcard, please.

    John
     
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  7. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The problem for Tywyn is that it is very near to Aberdovey which certainly is an attractive place to stop. The competition is shall we say "unequal"

    Preserved railways can never be truly "preserved" The T.R. is no exception and had not only to deal with condition problems but also with what was once booming traffic. Sadly, it booms no longer but much of the infrastructure created to cope remains and has to be maintained. This includes equipment and, yes, catering facilities.

    Something of this past enterprise needs to be re-captured in order to cope with the situation as it is. This thread has been a means of bouncing ideas around but the reaction has not always been encouraging, regardless of whether the ideas were any good or not. Something similar happened on another thread some time ago when it was suggested that online booking facilities for the T.R. were desirable. All sorts of objections were put forward to this. Now I note such facilities are there but the negativity at the time was disappointing and worrying.

    PH
     
  8. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    I don't think you can say the problem is Aberdovey, there are a number of factors which influence (a) whether to go to Tywyn and (b) whether to go to the TR when there. Speaking as a semi-local, if you want a decent meal, you are hardly likely to head for Tywyn (and yes, you could head to the Trefeddian or Penhelig in Aberdovey), if you want an ice cream you can stop off at Holgates, if you want to go to the beach, Fairbourne is more likely to get the vote (which also does cute railway, although the village as such is ghastly) etc etc. The current tourist likes more participative leisure activities, and "going ape", pony trekking, biking in Coed y Brenin, canoeing on the Dysynni by the BR bridge, and other outdoor activities are more likely to win the teenage and younger adult vote. It is a pity that they did not re-instate the Dysynni bridge at Tonfanau as a through route for cars (to come out at Rhoslefain), as that makes it easier to justify the detour from Bryncrug into Tywyn if you are doing the circuit of the Barmouth estuary / Talyllyn.
     
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  9. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    i think it's a matter of who holidays in Towyn. I get the impression that many of the holidaymakers are regulars (maybe with their own static) and having ridden once on the TR are unlikely to do it again unless they are enthusiasts.
     
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  10. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    You have touched upon something of relevance to all tourist railways as whilst most provide something for very small children, few indeed do very much for teenagers. Someone on the board of "my" railway mentioned this very recently. "We" have an associated attraction which has nothing to do with trains yet is proving very popular. This does not prevent a few volunteers having the "grumbly-grumblies" about it.

    The said "grumbly-grumblies" have not prevailed. I hope they would not on the T.R. if an ancillary attraction were proposed there.

    Paul H
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2016
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  11. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    that's true. Young kids are mad on Railways...how do you sustain that through the teen years to an age where they could get involved? what is the position about children being involved nowadays? I imagine it isn't as free and easy as it was back in my day.

    My Aussie Grandson, completely out of my influence! Also got a photo of him today cuddling Percy
    rohan banana.jpg
     
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  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    They're mad on the characters, trains themselves come later.
     
  13. Herald

    Herald Member

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    Hence my earlier suggestion several pages back about discounts. It is also noticeable that the Talyllyn is one of the heritage railways which operates a "gift aid" structure with included vouchers giving a net child fare of £1.70 and an adult one of £15.70. Leaving aside whether this donation with discount voucher model is actually compliant with gift aid legislation the structure perhaps indicates targeting a family market whereas the actual demographic of visitors to Tywyn may be older couples, walkers or dog owners (who often holiday within the UK to take their pet) and might be more likely to ride with a fare structure closer to their budgets or sense of good value. Finding directly comparable heritage lines is hard but the Welshpool and Llanfair charges £12.80 (adult day Rover), Brecon Mountain £13.50 (return trip) and VoR £18.70 (Day Rover after voucher but a longer ride).

    Visitor data for Welsh attractions includes sources such as http://gov.wales/docs/caecd/research/2016/160721-visitor-attractions-survey-2015-en.pdf which unfortunately lacks data for all railways but includes visitor numbers for Talyllyn at 43612, Snowdon Mountain Railway 132252, Llanberis Lake 71134, Gwili 36077 and Great Orme Tramway 196920. This survey also indicates that many of the better known castles and even free museums such as Big Pit (147085) or National Slate Museum (140828) do not get huge visitor numbers.

    There may, however, be relatively simple ways of boosting visitors by working on things like adjustments to timetables to better connect with the Cambrian Coast line. Its basically two hourly service in each direction (Tywyn being a crossing place) often doesn't provide optimum connections with the TR timetable e.g. Cambrian arrivals at 11.23 and 11.29 (which are likely to be used by those travelling from further away) are rather tight for a TR departure of 11.40. With the next TR departure at 13.25 on the blue or 1400 on the green mid season timetables how many potential customers are discouraged?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  14. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    how do you do that? I can't see older kids being into the Sir Handel type events but some way of drawing them in to hep would be the first step to volunteering.
     
  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I would be a little careful about giving way to railway enthusiasts sentimentality (a.k.a. W.I.B.N.) where mainline connections are concerned. Obviously they are a useful addition to income but the almost universal message is something like "nothing like the revenue from those coming by motor coach or private car". Altering the timetable to suit a minority user and possibly inconveniencing the majority is not the best of ideas.

    In any case before any timetable recasting is carried out there is the "black hole" of the Abergynolwyn stop to sort out. (Allready I can hear the massed chants of "No, No No and No" coming from certain quarters.)

    PH
     
  16. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Llanberis Lake Rly having nearly twice the visitor numbers is a bit of shock, presumably the difference being accessibility.
     
  17. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I've never read them as they came out a bit too late for me, but the "Peter's Railway" books seem like a good stepping stone from what I've seen.

    Yes there are more rules regarding young folk volunteering, but some youth groups are much more popular than others; from what I can see depending on how much practical stuff they can do, so clearly it can be done. Just takes a bit of effort.
     
  18. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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  19. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The T.R.is heavily into "Thomas the Tank Engine", helped in their case by the connection with the Rev. W. which advantages other lines. faced with substantial demands from the licensees, do not have. The "Peter" books may be taking over. Is it time for tourist lines to jump the Thomas ship? I know of one instance where it most certainly was.

    PH
     
  20. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm not sure on what basis sites are included, it seems a small selection of tourist sites. It would also be useful to understand what counts as a visitor.
     
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