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Swanage Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Rumpole, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    I guess that was the GWR supporting one their major customers and the LNER supporting theirs. Maybe the LMS were supportive of the Midlands and the Southern of Kent coalfields. ;)
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Southern used a mix and to an extent shopped around to get the best price.

    The general picture though was that to a large extent, the LSWR used Welsh coal. Much of it was brought by ship across the Bristol Channel to Fremington Quay in North Devon and then distributed by rail from there; doing so avoided paying carriage to the GWR. Probably the London area sheds got coal by rail via the GWR connection at Salisbury, but for the sheds further west, coming by sea to Fremington was cheaper. (In the very earliest days, rail haulage of Welsh coal was also out on account of the break of gauge needed, which meant coal wagons couldn't run through to their final destination, another argument for using ships instead).

    In the very earliest days, the LBSCR bought coal by ship from South Wales which was landed at Shoreham-by-Sea (and turned to coke there). That almost certainly explains why the LBSCR branch line from Brighton to Shoreham opened even before the mainline from London to Brighton - since the developing loco shed there needed a source of coal which couldn't come in by rail in the absence of a railway! As the railway network developed, they seemed to shop around based on price, which frequently meant either Welsh coal or coal coming from the Midlands coal fields.

    The SER originally also got its coal by sea, landed at Rotherhithe wharf in London and transported by canal to New Cross where there were coking furnaces. The source was originally the Northumberland / Durham coalfields; they bought slack (i.e. dust / small coals) which they could buy cheaply and convert to coke. When the transition to general coal burning took place (Cudworth being the inventor of one such patent firebox, ultimately superseded by the Midland system) they carried on buying cheap slack, which they would fire in a strange way, essentially heaping it up under the door where it would turn to coke - this was then broken up with a fire iron, spread across the grate and a new charge of slack being dumped under the door. If that sounds like hard work, I suspect that is because it was ...

    By the turn of the twentieth century and the formation of the SE&CR, the Loco Committee just tendered for coal and selected based on price and known suitability. Holcroft quotes prices from one such tendering exercise and the quotes received were widely spread across North Wales, the Midlands, Yorkshire, Kent and the North East, though interestingly not South Wales (which is generally what people think of when they mention "Welsh" coal). Interestingly, despite the proximity, the Kent coal was not the cheapest tender received.

    In the twentieth century, the Kent coal was mainly used by the eastern Kent sheds (i.e. Dover / Folkestone / Faversham / Ashford area), the remainder of the coalfield's production being used by the cement industry which grew up due to the close proximity of coal and chalk. The London area sheds stretching from Reading to Redhill, Chatham and Hastings continued to use hard coals from the north of England, brought by rail.

    There was an interesting experiment carried out at Holcroft's instruction on the mechanical coaling plant at Nine Elms, which indicated that after passing through the plant, 19% of the coal (which was soft Welsh coal) was broken up into dust simply by the process of coaling. A lot of that dust was simply lost - causing both expense and discomfort to passengers - simply by being blown off the tenders at speed. There were also difficulties in consistency, such that if you were unlucky, a very large part of the charge of coal from a mechanical coaler could be dust, which could be a problem if the unfortunate loco was due to haul your crack express. Hand coaling allowed more selectivity but was more labour intensive.

    The hard coals didn't have that problem, but - being smokier - more care had to be taken, particularly in the London area, to avoid smoke - the London County Council inspectors being on the lookout with coloured glass slides to enable them to estimate the density of smoke emitted by locos leaving the various termini.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2024
  3. Glenmutchkin

    Glenmutchkin Member

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    Thank you Tom. Every day is a learning day here.
     
  4. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    An informative and enlightening post Tom. Information about how the how the pre-nationalision railways operated is always welcome, most of us that remember the pre-nationalised lines were seldom interested in the finer details.
     
  5. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    From notes I made concerning LSWR coal supplies (from the Minutes of the Loco and Stores Committee).
    9/5/1900
    per Stephenson Clarke - 10,000 tons Midland Coal delivered to Nine Elms @ 21/3d per ton; 250,000 tons Best Smokeless Steam Coal delivered to Southampton @ 25/-d per ton; 50,000 tons ditto to Fremington; 30,000 tons Monmouthshire Steam Coal (Blaina) to So'ton @ 23/-d per ton; Midland Counties Steam Coal (no quantity given) to Nine Elms @ 21/-d per ton.
    Very much a fluid situation, Mr. Drummond was looking for the best price (of course). In 1902 they bought 1,000 tons/month of Best Lothian Screened Coal, delivered to So'ton @ 15/3d per ton. (By coastal collier, I imagine.)
    Different sheds got different supplies, usually the good stuff went to primarily passenger sheds, but at Guildford (a secondary shed) the supply was always better due to the smoke nuisance on the houses above. The complaints started early on, the company had a long correspondence with one of the houseowners above at the turn of the 20th Century.
    Pat
     
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  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Pretty much highlights what Welsh coal was like.
     
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  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Coal is only washed when the run of mine has dirt in it. With mechanisation of coal getting in the 1950’s and onwards that became more common.
     
  8. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    I seem to remember going to photograph steam locos working in the South Wales mines in the 1970s and seeing loads being taken to the washeries
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As I said, coal washing became more common with mechanised coal cutting.
     
  10. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    GWR locos were designed to burn Welsh coal and had deeper grates plus four dampers so they were different. Firemen also had to learn how to fire them best but then that’s the same with any class of loco. What works for a Bulleid pacific won’t work on a narrow firebox Jubilee as the boys at Carnforth have discovered

    Don
     
  11. Daddsie71b

    Daddsie71b Member Friend

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    That was while they were watching the road and applying the brake, no wonder they wanted to be drivers
     
  12. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    My Column in the next Heritage Railway will contain a critique of Welsh coal by someone who was on steam on the main line for all his working life. Not speculation but facts.

    Don
     
  13. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Out of curiosity, will that just be his account of working with Welsh coal, or will it go beyond into the commercial and engineering choices made by the GWR and others? I ask because the account of one individual is of limited value, no matter how accurately and fairly provided.

    Given the footplate experience @Steve brings, I am also inclined to defer to his observations of different locomotive types, and the comparisons between those built with Welsh coal in mind, and those not.
     
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  14. Andy Moody

    Andy Moody Member

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    Excuse me, But what has all this got to do with the Swanage Railway? I would much prefer to read about happenings on the Swanage Railway then a general discussion about coal,
    There is already a thread on page 6, Dormant since the 26th April 2924 called No steam without coal!
    Perhaps the moderators could move the coal discussions to that thread please?
     
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  15. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Your time machine worked then? :)
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    There are others on here with plenty of experience of firing steam locos but what you want is someone who has significant experience of both hard and soft coals. What you don't want is someone who only has significant experience of the one type. In the same vein, if you are looking at a comparison between ovoids and ordinary coal, you need to talk to someone who has significant experience, not someone who has had a little experience of the ovoids and not mastered them.
     
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  17. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A couple from half term week.
    Corfe Castle twilight with Manston on Tuesday evening, and the U on the 14:00 at Dickers today. DSC_0345r.jpg DSC_0352r.jpg DSC_0368r.jpg
     
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  18. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Just wait to see but he has worked on locos from all Regions and had vast experience
     
  19. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    The U approaching Herston this afternoon.
    I have no idea if the lack of stock in the sidings is significant or not.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Daddsie71b

    Daddsie71b Member Friend

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    I believe positive news soon to be released. Also, Swanrail has less stock now :(
     

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