Swanage Railway General Discussion

Quite - fuel costs and other consumables (oil, brake blocks, etc.) are the easiest to work out, it's the maintenance costs that make it difficult. A 117+121 combination (without doors sealed off for mainline use as per the ones at Swanage) has 76 doors to be maintained. 5 Mk1s will only have 34. That's a lot of locks that need to be maintained. 4 cabs that need to be kept operational rather than 2 on a diesel loco. 6 engines rather than one.

 

Quite so. My consistent view has been that overhaul and maintenance costs are the big driver of motive power costs, but too often the discussion centres on fuel and other consumable costs because they are relatively easy to quantify.

I have a suspicion (but it is just that - a hunch, not backed by data) that there is a systemic risk in using diesels that the long-term maintenance costs are being underestimated because they are hard to quantify and there is less experience across the sector. Although steam costs can be quite eye watering, it is also true that (1) they are relatively predictable in time (you know, for example, that you will likely need to do a p&v every 20-25k miles; a major boiler overhaul every ten years etc) and (2) almost everything likely to be faced has already been faced before by someone else, so there is knowledge about methods and probable costs.

I'm not sure either of those is as well founded for diesels. A con-rod failure that causes a flying piston to punch a hole through the crank case may never happen, or it could happen tomorrow. A flashover on the main generator might lead to a very uncertain repair bill. There seems to be a general mantra in diesel preservation to ensure you have a big selection of spares, but what happens when the spares run out? A steam loco can be repaired almost indefinitely within our cottage industry: can a diesel?

Tom

 

Thanks so replacing the 3/4 car DMU with a 33 and 5 MK1 carriages as a second train on the peak season yellow timetable should not increase costs, but is a bit more effort coupling and uncoupling the 33 for turn around.
The new yellow timetable should reduce the need for top and tailed 6 carriage trains when, hopefully passenger numbers increase.
But why can't the SR restore 2 steam trains on the yellow timetable for July and August, rather than published yellow one steam and one diesel (33) timetable, when there might be 4 steam locos available?

The only thing could be if funding for Wareham DMU services in July and August was found? Then there would be one steam train and a diesel (multiple unit) yellow timetable?.
But as funding is not forthcoming, I expect the timetable to be changed for 2 steam trains. (which could still allow a Wareham - Corfe mainline DMU shuttle if funds could be found by say the DfT?).

 

The railway is desperately trying to save every penny it can in order to survive. Have you seen the price of coal lately?

 

Thanks, Any figures for the cost of coal over diesel?

 

Well not sure how representative it is for Swanage but in the Dec 2023 Trackside Chris Price the then CEO at the NYMR was quoted as saying a steam loco cost £1250 each day in coal, whilst a diesel uses £250 of fuel. The profiles of the lines are different so the moors may need more coal for the climbs, but if accurate a big difference.

 

Does anyone know why out of the 4 historic coaches only 2 are in use atm... we got a bulleid brake plus another car which if used could nearly an entire set of classic carriages.

Just always thought it was odd that they are restoring more heritage ones and not really using the ones they already have?

 

The Swanage Railway Heritage Carriages Facebook page is the place to go for news, seems one brake carriage is stored undercover at Margate causing the DMU to be used in the Victorian weekend, whilst other carriages are still being worked on.

 

Thanks quite an increase, so if the SR is getting 33s at low rent, and easier to maintain than steam locos, then economical to use them July and August, and prevent 6 carriage top and tail trains.

I see that the Bluebell line and MHR have yet to confirmation if there is to be 2 steam train railways in July and August, now the Bluebell line has a diesel loco makes sense to use it more.

The only downside is if visitors expect to travel on a steam train and get disappointed on a diesel train, perhaps more explanation of the cost of coal is required on booking sites or leaflets, or an extra charge for travelling on a steam train, like the SR did with the heritage carriages?.

 

End of the day it is a 'steam' railway for most customers and they want a steam train trip to the beach.....

Issue last year was with only 1 steam train running it was packed onto the 1 steam service......

With the railway increasing passengers numbers last year and hoping this year as well.. surly they need to go to two steam on higher passenger numbers days during the 6 week holidays .. tue-wed-thu, sat and sunday otherwise the steam service will be rammed with the class 33 having to run (also increasing costs to top and tail 6 cars)

 

We don't have a diesel that could pull service trains in July and August - the 33 is still being restored, and the 73 can't keep time with a full summer load. So we will be running two steam, plus steam hauled dining trains. (This weekend is three steam, for example).

The public want steam - diesel is a false economy, in my view.

Tom

 

Even during summer...... Do we need the class 33... with people wanting steam even the 3 car 117 probably would soak up all the diesel 2nd service demand (at a much cheaper cost than the class33).

I'm hoping the railway changes their minds if passengers numbers are up year on year during Easter.

Still interesting to know what services and how often the TC set will be used after all the hard work

 

May I suggest that unlike the Bluebell passengers do use the Swanage Railway as a way to 'get around'

As with the WSR, I suggest that there are issues about offering an attractive timetable and the use of diesel hauled services can do that

 

Historically the NYMR has been a steam railway with a diesel being used on the second train out of Pickering during the peak summer for the simple reason that facilities at Pickering only allow two steam locos to be stabled there. That train does not load well, even with the attraction of the teak coaches. It is a well known fact that there were a significant number of passengers who turned and walked if they discovered a diesel on what should be a steam service when it was turn up and pay. The DMU was an exception to this when it was used on the shoulder services and many people enjoyed that experience when it was operational, possibly because during this period it was usually the retired who were travelling and it was a throwback to their own experience.
An unanswered question in the steam v diesel debate is how many people don't travel when it is a diesel and whether those missing fares would tip the balance in favour of steam in the economics of operation. Another question yet to arise is what future is there for diesel locos? We are dismayed at the costs of a major overhaul of a steam loco but they are overhaulable. There is a cottage industry that ensures their longevity. What is going to happen when a diesel needs a major overhaul in times to come? A new Sulzer 6LDA28 engine is just not going to happen and many of the smaller items are similarly not going to be replicated when needed. The heritage diesel fleet essentially exists on a significant spares holding and that is a finite item.

 

The difference between DMU and Diesel is that a DMU is novel in that you can see through the front where you are going, a diesel just replaces a steam train and you lose the chuffing sounds, steam whistle, and smell of steam, so a one way steam, one way does potentially have an attraction.

 

Having a quick look at WSR's August timetable and seems to be a 2 steam timetable, there is only one diesel return run, whereas SR's yellow timetable is 1 steam, 1 diesel!.

 

And if you have diesels locos and don’t use them then in time of need such as a dry summer ..
1) Crew competency issues .
2)Loco reliability issues …like to be kept warm …damp storage often results in electrical gremlins .
3) Loco out of use as no running fees results in no money for maintenance costs or enthusiasm to carry out the work .
The above then results in frantic phone calls to source a suitable loco at an acceptable price with a reasonable transport cost .Think of KESR and the fate of 33052 v hiring in 33202 last summer …

 

Last time I checked, coal was hovering around the £375 a tonne mark in comparison to pre-covid levels of approximately £185 a tonne.

The costs have gone up astronomically and hit a peak of over £400 a tonne.

4365 the bulleid brake is at Margate and I am of the understanding that it needs work before it can return to service

 

But see post #10282.

 

Steam/diesel/steam/diesel. I don’t know. What do you want to do, run your steam until there’s no more money to pay the bills then shut up shop? End of project, thank you very much, but we ran steam.