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Swanage Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Rumpole, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. MatthewW

    MatthewW New Member

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    Heritage railways are unlikely to require the schedule 8 insurance extension unless they are mainline connected and there is a risk of delays.

    TOCs have the primary exposure under their access agreement, however the penalty can be passed to rolling stock owners under the operating/hire agreement where the failure of the rolling stock directly leads to a delay and is not due to the negligence of the TOC (mechanical breakdown for example).

    Schedule 8 cover is available as an extension to the rolling stock loss and damage policy and the premium is rated based on the TOC incident cap/number of mainline trips per annum. Premiums start at £150 per trip.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
  2. Andy Moody

    Andy Moody Member

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    Interesting comment Pat. I wonder how the NYMR fare, working between Grosmont and Whitby?
     
  3. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    Based on RTT today there were 4 Northern trains whilst the NYMR would be running. 2 down trains an hour at Wareham gives perhaps 10 or 11 depending on when the service actually runs.
     
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  4. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    No idea, I'm afraid. I am only assuming that SR will have to stand alongside the big boys, maybe there is a get-out-of-jail clause, but somehow I doubt it.
    The killer is the way that delays to one train knock on to who knows how many others? The Esk Valley with 4 trains during the NYMR working day has less risk than the Weymouth line with 12 or 14.
    (As an example: Some years ago a Freightliner got stuck on the Reading Triangle due to a wagon problem. When I last looked at TRUST that day the Cowley Minis train was running through Guildford (!) about 3 hours late. There were 23 pages on TRUST listing affected trains, including 2 minutes for a Gatwick to Reading GWR service at Shalford!)
    Can you see why I think it could be a killer?
    Pat
     
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  5. 80104

    80104 Member

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    Well SR is mainline connected and on the days of operating the wareham service there would be a risk of delays.

    Is the £150 per single journey or per round trip? Based on the 2017 trials that is either 4 round trips or 8 single journey so £600 or £1200 per operating day. On the basis of 90 trial days thats a further £54K or £108K insurance premium.

    Broken record time but it is costs such as these which (assuming they are not avoidable) really call into question the viability of a Wareham service.
     
  6. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I think it has been pointed out on here before (by @Steve?) that delays on the Esk Valley line can ripple back at least as far as Leeds. I wonder how the cost of insurance relates to the risk, though? In the days when Whitby only had the single platform thee risk of a train breaking down in the platform and blocking it would have caused far more chaos than the same event with two platforms available. Perhaps the possible savings were part of the justification for commissioning the second platform.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
  7. MatthewW

    MatthewW New Member

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    That is per round trip. The rate thins with more trips.

    The extension is wholly optional for operators if they wish to protect against schedule 8.
     
  8. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    JOOI can you get an extension to give cover where there is no damage? One construction project I was involved in had the NR-required £155m PL policy, with a £2m extension to cover where there was no damage, but loss suffered.
     
  9. MatthewW

    MatthewW New Member

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    There are non-damage business interruption products in the market generally, but I’m not aware of any that will respond to pure fines/penalties flowing from schedule 8.
     
  10. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Just an observation. Travelled on the DMMU from Corfe to Swanage today and it was very lightly loaded. But just wondered how much better loaded it would have been if todays trips could have gone to and from Wareham. Have the railway done some estimates? By contrast the 5 coach steam services which we saw and travelled on were all very well loaded some with more than one large party of people. 31806 performed well on good quality coal.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don’t know the ins and outs of these things but I understand that delays are effectively traded. Certainly I understand that over time Northern has caused more delays to NYMR services in aggregate than the other way round. The same may well be the case if and when the SR start running to Wareham.
     
  12. 80104

    80104 Member

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    I am not sure that that scenario will do SR any good in the long run if it puts off potential passengers from coming to Wareham by train to connect to go to Swanage. Furthermore with possibly only 4 services a day between Wareham and Corfe Castle it could (a) encourage passengers missing the connection at Wareham to abandon (b) cause problems to ripple down to the core Norden <> Swanage core heritage rail service.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I didn’t say it would do the SR any good; I was essentially saying the delay penalties work both ways so the doom laden scenarios painted by others are unlikely to happen in reality. There is also the likely fact that Control will give priority to other services so it is more likely that SR trains will be delayed rather than the other way around.
     
  14. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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    Guess as the transmission is mechanical DMMU is the correct term?.
    Listed as diesel on the timetable, so could be run with the 33 and mk1 coaches as in previous years, but does allow DMMU testing and training ready for the Wareham service in 2023. Still not the full season peak (MHS just has a one train timetable midweek), so a good sign the steam trains are full already. Later in July and August the DMMU will probably be replaced by a 2 steam train timetable?.
    Some passengers will prefer the panaromic windows of the DMMU as there is no observation coach this year.
    Looking back on archive.org the older timetables had more trains running than this year.

    In 2017 the 11.15 from Wareham picking up mainline daytrip passengers would have been most busy, returning on the 16:23?.
     
  15. 80104

    80104 Member

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    In past non covid years SRC has operated 4 basic timetable variants:
    orange: very low season 4 services a day one steam loco
    blue: low season 80 minute frequency one steam loco
    green: off peak season 40 minute frequency one steam loco one diesel / dmu
    yellow: peak season 40 minute frequency two steam locos

    It appears that this year mileage has been reduced by an increased headway (45 mins / 90 mins) and by an earlier last train. IIRC last trains in green and yellow were 17:20 / 18:00.

    Whilst the DMU does give excellent panoramic views customers preference is for steam.

    Yes the 2017 Wareham carrying pattern with a heavy load 11:15 down 16:23 up and lightly loaded on all other services. It has been suggested that SRC operate Corfe Castle <> Wareham rather than Swanage <> Wareham so that (a) a greater choice of departures from Wareham were offered especially to give 2 services which would allow connections to arrive in Swanage by midday (b) to better test demand from Wareham (c) to reduce peak day congestion between Swanage and Corfe Castle - 3 services 2 steam 1 Wareham dmu is arguably too much (d) to encourage passengers to switch to steam at Corfe Castle.
     
  16. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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  17. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    Currently (even during Carnival week) the second train has neither steam or diesel shown against it. I guess the railway can decide nearer the time based on loading's in the run up to and after the start of the school holidays.
    easyJet and other airlines doing their bit to promote another year of holidays at home may help.
     
  18. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    Probably still using this pile Don.
     

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  19. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Well maybe but the crew said it was very expensive. Having a week here on holiday to do all the area’s attractions we have also had time to get my best ever shots of the trains and we have been here many times before so I am very glad the weather has been so good despite the awful forecasts. We have also listened to what people on the trains and in our hotel, Mortons House are saying and the view seems to be why isn’t the diesel train going to Wareham? Wasn’t that the justification for the local authority funding in the first place? It must be done for at least one season to see if the extra costs can be justified. If it’s not tried we won’t know.
     
  20. Andy Moody

    Andy Moody Member

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    Hi Gricerdon.
    The simple reason is that the Swanage Railway is still waiting for permission from the Office of Road and Rail/Network Rail to operate the class 117/121 DMMU's over the Network Rail lines between The boundary at Frome River bridge at Worgret and Wareham station.
    Hopefully this will happen very soon this year.
     

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