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SVR General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by threelinkdave, Aug 20, 2014.

  1. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    In the last few years, the SVR's smaller locos have seen far more use due to their economy and can be used regularly on shorter mid week services and shoulder season.
    I remember a time in the early 00's where the SVR turned out 60009, 34027 with the smaller loco being 45110 - on a mid week service. In the 90s they could turn out 12 active steam locos - those times are long gone & around 6 to 8 is probably all that is needed now.
    45110 is a loco I would love to see back - one for the Hagley group to turn their fund raising efforts to?
    However, practically wise: 5764, 4566, 47383 or a quick overhaul of 1501 are probably better investments.
    For larger locos, 7325 was mentioned a lot previously. 2857 has proven to be the perfect heritage railway loco in terms of power and economy.
    Other influences will be which locos have an active fundraising group / owners - the SVR seems assured of Manor availability for the foreseeable along with the return of 5164, plus a stanier mogul.
    The likes of 600, 80079, 46443 and 7819 will need a benefactor with a big cheque. Perhaps 48773 falls into this category too.
    The major bonus is all of these locos are undercover, viewable and not deteriorating. The std 4 and 8F covered very high mileages in their last stints so can assumed to be tired mechanically. 80079 was active before the reverse osmosis water treatment came on stream too. I doubt we will see 43106 back quickly either unfortunately following it's withdrawal in Summer.
    Happy to be corrected on any of these ramblings!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2023
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  2. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Maybe it's just me, but I think that a fleet the size of the SVR's, there will inevitably be long periods of inactivity for any given loco, but that is surely a good thing a it brings another engine out for a spell and introduces variety. I'm sure that on some railways you'll see a big drive to keep a smaller number ofthe same engines running, with quick turnarounds at overhaul, reducing variety - probably more efficient but a lot less interesting.
     
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  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The elephant in the room is to what extent locos come with a dowry, i.e. a pot of money raised by a support / owning group independent of any contribution from the host railway.

    For example, a loco needing a £500k overhaul and likely to run 50,000 miles on its next ticket will cost £10 per mile to run in overhaul costs, which is probably rather more than it will burn in coal. A small loco that saves £1 or £2/mile in coal over a 50,000 mile operating stint won't compete with a loco that happens to have £250k towards the next overhaul available from a legacy.

    I don't think any of these calculations are easy, because there are simply too many variables. Certainly I'd agree with the earlier points that on similar duties, there's not much to choose in coal consumption while operating; and the extra coal of a large loco to light up can to a degree be mitigated by rostering practice (i.e. put the large loco on the long duties and in daily traffic for weeks on end). But beyond that it really gets complex. For example, a replacement cylinder block pushes the price of the next overhaul up, but that block might last another hundred years at our levels of usage. The problem is it is cash now against a depreciation timeframe that is impossibly long given that heritage railways are cashflow-sensitive, not profit-and-loss sensitive. Similar, to a lesser extent, to things like a major firebox repair, which might be expensive now but hopefully you get two periods of operation. But even so, that is still realistically a thirty year timeframe. There's also the extent to which you choose volunteer vs. in-house workshop vs. external contractor - those get progressively more costly but in some instances you might not have the luxury of choice if a volunteer group will take ten years to overhaul a loco and an external contractor can do it in 18 months for four times the price ...

    I suspect the only railways that have got a really good handle on their locomotive costs are those like the Paignton and Dartmouth that are ruthlessly commercial and have a small fleet which they turn round quickly. Thankfully (for the sake of variety), preserved railways aren't all like that, but I think loco overhaul priorities do then become more of an art than a science.

    Tom
     
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  4. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Part of the furniture

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    Of course another consideration is the cost to infrastructure of running heavy locos...
     
  5. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    I was slightly shocked when a loco owner (not svr related) shared that after ten years running they had £250k in the bank . The overhaul cost them £400k and that included around £200k or volunteer labour . So the owner funded operation to the tune of £350k . That isn't sustainable and even allowing for the previously voiced argument that loco owners need a railway to run on and so should contribute to the host railway

    with ageing owners , and few willing to get involved and take on responsibility there is a real chance loco's won't be restored . Then what ?

    The other factor as well and Swanage I think have said they are doing this and in Steam railway , SVR have indicated this as well , and that is less steam operations so less overhauls will be commenced as lines try and balance future motive power needs

    The big risk though is what is the primary draw for a heritage railway visit and that is steam . I would avoid travelling by Diesel in preference to steam so railways risk triggering a spiral downwards in terms of passenger numbers
     
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  6. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    I guess for railways that have multi train services (e.g. SVR, NYMR, Swanage(?) and the like) you can reduce the costs by having 1 of your 3 services diesel hauled, instead of all 3 being steam. That means you still have the attraction of steam, but take a little edge off the cost. Of course, it's not perfect if you don't want any diesel haulage at all, and it may mean that the diesel diagrams are disproportionately quiet, or if you have a family turn up on the day without planning or much research hoping for steam, and there happens to be a diesel in the platform when they arrive, they might change their mind (unless they manage to find a member of staff to ask "Are there any steam trains running today". As has been mentioned here and on other threads, there are a lot of elements to factor in when choosing what to run and when to maximise earnings and minimise costs
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think it is a fallacy that diesels reduce costs: they make precisely zero difference to most of the major costs of running a railway (infrastructure, C&W, signalling, basic business expenses). At most there might be a small reduction run fuel costs, which could easily prove a false economy if it dissuades people from travelling at all.

    I agree with @Sidmouth that there is a very real danger that in focusing so hard on costs, you decrease the value as a visitor attraction to such a degree that people stop visiting at all.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2023
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  8. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    They don’t require a £500k overhaul every 10 years. Or at least they haven’t so far. So I think they are considerably cheaper at the moment. Apart from the effect on visitor numbers though the other looming cost is that more use will both push up the daily hire fees and the maintenance costs. In addition some equipment on board a diesel has a life measured by hours run. Some of that equipment on the electrical side is irreplaceable/short supply. Try getting a control card for a 47/4. Finally heritage diesel is not except from emission rules in the way a steam engine is. My feeling is that moving to a lot of diesel haulage is unlikely to be a panacea
     
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  9. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    7819 has a friends group which have been fundraising for its overhaul since 2008. Not sure what the current position is though?
     
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  10. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    not quite sure about the maths here, but broadly the sentiment is correct. At the end of 10 years running a mid size loco, you might have £250k to £500k depending. The overhaul is likely to be £500k to £750k +
     
  11. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    the other thing to consider is inflation especially in engineering is significant and even if you have money in the bank inflation is outstripping returns on your savings
     
  12. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Part of the furniture

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    Other than the purchase of a set of new tyres, I haven't heard anything recently about 7819.
     
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  13. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I assume that you are referring to diesels in this post, if you are I would advise some caution. The current situation with diesels seems to me to be similar to that with ex-Barry steam engines in the early 80s when restorations the SVR, MHR and others seemed to be quite quick and cheap. For the most part that was because the earliest locos to be steamed were cherry-picked for the their good condition, in terms of tyres, fireboxes, boiler etc. Now that they've done a lot more work they need correspondingly more done to them when overhauls enter the picture.

    Most preserved diesels were also cherry-picked and have the additional advantage that may parts are still available off the shelf or from yet-to-be scrapped sisters, and that is compounded by the fact that most are also low-mileage examples in preservation. One example that is more comparable with typical steam locos, though, is the NYMR's Classes 24 and 25, D5032, D5061 and D7628 all of which which have clocked up high mileages in preservation and are in need of, or are receiving, extensive and expensive overhauls. It would not surprise me, for example, to learn that, when it is finished, D5032 will have cost as much as a typical steam loco.

    To put it another way, a diesel being used in much the same way as a steam loco probably is not significantly cheaper in maintenance terms.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2023
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  14. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    As important, and as with steam, coaching stock and infrastructure, the cheapness of operation is in large part a function of using the dowry provided by the remaining asset life in the locomotive. Those £500k overhauls may not be 10 yearly, but they're required - and for at best no better return. Look at what Paul Spracklen has had to spend on 50026 to get it back up and running, and then consider what the return is.
     
  15. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    It could have been £9,999,999 though...
     
  16. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

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    The loco is owned by the Charitable Trust, although I'm not sure if the friends are now part of the Trust (I believe the Friends of 4930 were/are). The last published Charitable Trust accounts at June 2021 included a 'Hinton Manor 7819 Fund' totalling just £19,989.
     
  17. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody has yet mentioned the use of a DMU as the diesel offering needed to ensure that a timetable is not left with unacceptable gaps.
    Not having personal knowledge of the economics I made some enquires amongst knowledgeable folk and was given a rule of thumb that a medium sized ex mainline diesel uses about one gallon of fuel per mile.
    In contrast a DMU was said to do 8 miles to the gallon of fuel.
    Now I know there are differences here but if you are trying to move around 150 folk in between steam workings (which don't load a lot higher than that?) the contrast in fuel costs is stark even before you get into the complexity of maintenance of the ex mainline diesels.
    Perhaps others have greater knowledge?
     
  18. Simon Smith

    Simon Smith New Member

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    As ever the railways that suffer the most in terms of overhaul costs are those that either rely on external contractors or railways that have an engineering base and are charging loco owning groups a commercial rate for the labour.

    The overhaul costs in these cases will be heavily weighted towards labour costs not materials. If you have a good setup like the ESR you can turn a barry wreck around for probably not much more than £200,000.

    I'm guessing the SVR are treating their loco ownings groups as a commercial exercise to try and make up a failing P&L.......
     
  19. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Part of the furniture

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    I personally would prefer the DMU to a most diesel loco haulage. My impression is it only requires a handful of passengers to justify its running. Of course at the moment it isn't operation. The DMU group website indicates the major issue is the bogies, with one set currently away for work. The initial plan is for a two car set of M52064 + M51941 (DMBS + DMCL). That would have a seating capacity of ca 110, which might be a little light to fill in for full line services (though might be alright for any short workings, say KR-HY).
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Is that figure you quote per engine? Even on a flat railway you are likely to require two engines running and a longer train will probably have four engines operating (3 or 4 cars).
     
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