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Surviving nineteenth century standard gauge locomotives

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Jamessquared, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Thanks MuzTrem for an interesting as always perspective.

    I think if you were filling significant gaps, a Jenny Lind has to be right up there, both as an example of an early single-driver type (which were the ubiquitous passenger engines of the mid nineteenth century) and - being specific - as perhaps the first standardised batch-built loco, supplied to several railways. However, from a construction point of view, the inside frames stop in front of the firebox, to which they are riveted. This allowed a wider-than-normal firebox, increasing grate area and firebox heating surface which was the key to their success. It does however mean that the boiler and frames can't be readily split in the way of a more modern locomotive, making maintenance and overhaul a bit more complex.

    You do also have to think about tractive effort, and the seats per ton of carriages. In that regard, even late Victorian four wheelers are considerably heavier than their mid-century predecessors.

    Hence, a double-framed goods engine, or a 2-4-0 passenger engine, are likely to be a better match between being significant and interesting while also being useful traffic locos. If I had to choose one of the former (on the grounds that pretty much everyone will have their own favourites), I'd take one of the SER Cudworth goods engines. A very large number were built (over fifty built - not quite a DX goods, but a significant proportion of the stock of a railway that only had about 300 engines in total at the time). Obviously there was variation in such a long lived class, so specifically I'd choose 127/8, since they ran for a period with Mansell wooden centred wheels, which would certainly ring the changes visually! The last of the class lasted into the early twentieth century, still with open cabs.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
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  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed - see here:

    [​IMG]

    Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cite_du_Train_Mulhouse_2014_096_(16137331192).jpg

    They seemed to work in France, but of the British examples I know of, they weren't especially successful. TR Crampton was an advisor to the board of the LCDR when it started and specified his own designs in many cases, with notable lack of success. the first Locomotive Superintendent, William Martley, spent the first five years of his tenure desperately rebuilding to get a semblance of a reliable locomotive stock!

    Tom
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Lots of LCDR carriages in preservation and no LCDR locos ...

    Tom
     
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  4. flaman

    flaman Well-Known Member

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    There are a couple of classic 1850s British built locos not so far away: Both Beyer Peacocks, standard gauge and, AFAIK, still steamable; 2-2-2 "Gota" and 2-4-0 "Prinz August" at Gavle, Sweden.
    I rode behind "Gota" between the Gavle Station and Museum in about 2005, an experience that you could never repeat here- or could you;).
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  5. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    This thread is rapidly degenerating in the predictable "wouldn't it be nice" direction! I have often wondered why the "Bloomer" project came to a halt seemingly suddenly. Very possibly because someone realised that it would be unlikely to earn its keep.

    PH
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  6. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    yes, can we get back on track with a definitive list so far?
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm still collating, between my original list (which included all the mainline locos, but missed most of the industrials); the list from http://www.heritage-railways.com/locosdb/locosdb.php; and others mentioned on this thread by other people.

    But, here's the graph at least of 146 locos as follows:

    - Built 1899 or earlier
    - 4' 8.5" gauge
    - Steam traction (that eliminates a couple of electrics on @mdewell's list)
    - Five replicas included (three Trevethick; Steam Elephant; Planet) but replicas of locos in which the originals still exist excluded (Rocket, Sans Pareil, Puffing Billy, Locomotion, Novelty; I've included the hybrid original / replica Novelty in MOSI, i.e. Novelty is in the list once, but not twice).
    - British-built locos currently abroad excluded, except Mersey Rail "The Major", which ran here before export.
    - Non-UK locos excluded
    - 20th Century locos to 19th century design excluded, i.e. M7 No. 53; J72 "Joem" etc.

    nineteenth-century-locos.png

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
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  8. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Just to be awkward, presumably the total number of locos in service increased every decade, so to male your point you should normalise for that...
     
  9. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Trevethick's locos weren't 4' 8.5" gauge (though the replica Catch Me Who Can may be)
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Do you have the data? ;)

    Tom
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fair point...

    The Coalbrookdale replica looks like it is 3' gauge, running on non-flanged wheels and edge rail.
    http://www.heritage-railways.com/locosdb/locosdb2.php?RefNo=2035

    The Pen-y-darren replica looks like it is 4'4" gauge, again running on edge rails
    http://www.heritage-railways.com/locosdb/locosdb2.php?RefNo=918

    Edit: there seem to be photos online of the loco running on both edge rails and conventional rails with flanged wheels. Are the axles interchangeable to allow running on either gauge / form of track?

    Catch me who can is, for entirely understandable pragmatic reasons, 4'8.5" with flanged wheels so it can run on a conventional railway.
    http://www.heritage-railways.com/locosdb/locosdb2.php?RefNo=3299

    I'll remove them next time I update the chart ... (Bang goes the 1800 - 1809 decade!)

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  12. William Shelford

    William Shelford New Member

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    The original Puffing Billy & Wylam Billy are 5'0" gauge, however the replica at Beamish is 'standard' gauge (so it fits on the tramway).
     
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  13. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    No! Someone may have, or you could use miles of railway open as a proxy...
    I think (say a couple of from different decades) working replica 19th century trains (loco plus carriages) should be the next big push for the movement. I quite appreciate the problem with lots of choice which would tend to split people's affections, but I think this would in fact be less of an issue than for 20th century locos, because no one remembers them at all!
    I think they are not just "wouldn't it be nice" but the missing part of the story. They could also, for rarity, be more revenue earning than just another big four loco - filming and gala visits for example. I would certainly pay more to ride on such a train than yet another Mk1 train with something in BR livery on the front...
    I would be happy to support completion of the Bloomer, for example, if I thought it was actually making any progress.
     
  14. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    No point. There was one such train out working today. Carriages dating from 1864 to 1898 with motive power of 1876 manufacture. Normal fares applied and from the WEBCAM it seemed packed. On the Isle of Wight of course (running tomorrow as well.)

    Paul H
     
  15. cav1975

    cav1975 Member

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    But Paul - "andrewshimmin" was looking for a working replica 19th century train (loco plus carriages) and not the genuine one that you refer to.......
     
  16. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    If one was looking for a practically usable Victorian loco to build, with a matching set of coaches already existent / being restored (so far, two runners, and another two on the way), but with the company in question generally under-represented, I'd have thought a good case could be made for building one of the North Staffs 0-6-0 tender locos from the late 1860s.

    That said, I'm rather with Paul Hitch tbh, this thread is rather descending into "wouldn't it be nice if isms". If people want to throw money at rare and interesting Victorian engines, I could present them with a good list of worthy causes to be going on with - two of the four pre 1900 locos at Foxfield need significant work/money (particularly "The Welshman"), the VCT's Sir Berkley has just gone out of ticket and needs £lots throwing at it's boiler, the unfortunate Naysmyth Wilson at MRC could use £70k throwing at it to run again (it's a lovely quirky engine, and tragically went to MRC as a working engine but has deteriorated severely over the intervening 40ish years)... and that little list is just the first few that came to mind out of probably a hundred odd deserving causes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
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  17. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Still don't see the point I am afraid.

    Paul H
     
  18. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    By that logic, I think the GCR 567 project also has quite a strong case. Although the Pollitt 4-4-0 may bot be the most significant design in terms of the overall history of Britain's railways, it is significant to the individual history of the GCR as they were the principal express passenger engines at the time the London extension opened. In any case, Butler-Henderson now looks unlikely to steam again so if we want to see a complete GCR passenger train running, then new-build may be the only way to go.

    When combined with the GCR rolling stock trust's coaches it will allow the railway to offer a complete Edwardian train, and I think that will add a significant string to the GCR's bow, and could potentially be a useful educational tool for visiting school groups etc.

    I must admit, I am generally inclined to agree with estwdjhn that we should prioritise looking after genuine historic relics rather than building replicas; but in a case like this, construction of a replica loco gives a spur to the restoration of genuine carriages, and will allow them to be operated in a more authentic context once complete. So I think one has to judge each case on its own merits.
     
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  19. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Just to muddy the waters a little more; there are a number of surviving locos, which did not run in the UK, but were identical to ones that did (On the M&SWJR)
    http://www.australiansteam.com/2408.htm
    :)
     
  20. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    anyone (especially from the general Cricklade area) fancy a coach trip?
     

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