If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Streamlined Non-Pacifics

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by DismalChips, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    1,288
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    240P15 likes this.
  2. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Devon
    Is it possible that a Great Western loco got there first? From the testimony of a former Mather Dixon & Co. employee many years later:-

    [​IMG]
     
  3. 5944

    5944 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,679
    Likes Received:
    1,355
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Train Maintainer for GTR at Hornsey
    Location:
    Letchworth
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not overly sure it was worth the Italians streamlining a 2-8-0 with a maximum speed of 65 km/h!
    [​IMG]

    Though possibly a bit more effective on a 120 km/h 2-6-2.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Johann Marsbar

    Johann Marsbar Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    309
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Suffolk
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That one looks as if it could double up as a paddle steamer!
     
    Bluenosejohn, 60017 and jnc like this.
  5. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    14,525
    Likes Received:
    4,780
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The PRR T1 4-4-4-4 Duplex locos;
    T1_color_photo.jpg
     
  6. DismalChips

    DismalChips Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    250
    Location:
    9A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    To go back a few posts, the streamlined Schools looked spectacular. I'd love to have seen it. Imagine being 7 or 8 and seeing that, you'd know you were living in the space age.
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    28,152
    Likes Received:
    11,314
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You may have a point there. :)
     
  8. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    29,424
    Likes Received:
    4,342
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Don't you think that all those were 'streamlined' to make them look more imposing and faster, than actually be of any use at the speeds that most travelled at?
     
  9. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    352
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'm afraid my idea of streamlining does not include some of the foregoing - a pointy smokebox door or a wraparound cow catcher doesn't do it imo.

    neither does this French offering . Semi streamlined - but gorgeous 1200px-Corpet-Louvet-n1908-1949-232-U-1-SNCF.jpg
     
  10. Hampshire Unit

    Hampshire Unit Active Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    891
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carer, Gardener
    Location:
    Alresford
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Conventional wisdom has it that for most locos the streamlining was pretty much of cosmetic/publicity value. Looking at a well known internet site, the Coronation class pacifics were three tons heavier in streamlined form, which would have incurred extra fuel costs at all speeds, whereas streamlining has little effect at low speed (air resistance rising with the square of velocity rather than linearly)
     
  11. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    1,288
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Almost certainly style over content.

    I mean the 2-10-4 was based in Calgary for going over the mountains which they weren’t doing at high speed.
     
  12. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    5,850
    Likes Received:
    2,571
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    240P15 likes this.
  13. Glenmutchkin

    Glenmutchkin New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2017
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    60
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Scotland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    240P15 likes this.
  14. MrC

    MrC New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    48
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Glenmutchkin likes this.
  15. Tobbes

    Tobbes New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    58
    I didn't realise the Schools actually ran on the mainline at all - are there any photos, please?
     
  16. Tobbes

    Tobbes New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    58
  17. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,287
    Likes Received:
    3,126
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    31A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think it only ran like this once but here you are.
    image.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    Bluenosejohn and 240P15 like this.
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    15,390
    Likes Received:
    20,638
    Location:
    21C102
    The photo @Matt37401 has included is the only photo I've ever seen - certainly nothing of it actually running.

    Tom
     
  19. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    3,011
    Likes Received:
    3,527
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Apprentice Railway Engineer, Children's Author
    Location:
    Sidcup, Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I rather think there's been one very specific advantage missed off here - certainly true of the Gresley locomotives fitted with the Bugatti front end.

    Smoke deflection.

    The wedge shape and the aerofoils lifted the smoke away from the driver's line of sight. This is best demonstrated by looking at Youtube videos to compare between single chimney Flying Scotsman and the double chimney A4s running in preservation.

    The bugatti front end locos, by and large, significantly better at smoke deflection. Fitting it to the W1, the P2s and the two B17s were part of a publicity drive, absolutely, but it also remains an absolute fact that the front ends served this practical purpose too - and it did it very well (and still do it well today).

    There is an argument that 2007 Prince of Wales might have been better off adopting the P2/3 spec with streamlined front end and piston valves - both known quantities for smoke deflection and everyday use.

    However - within the casing of no.2007, and particular behind the chimney, there have been modifications made to improve the smoke deflection ability of the original Cock O' The North style front end. Should it work, it'll likely retain the magnificence of this shape with a performance similar to that of the Bugatti front end.

    Smoke deflection is a much forgot about bit of locomotive design, sadly.
     
    jnc likes this.
  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    3,011
    Likes Received:
    3,527
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Apprentice Railway Engineer, Children's Author
    Location:
    Sidcup, Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It did save on power requirements - but to get the most out of the casing, you have to be going significantly faster than normal line speeds. Mallard's 126mph (or 125mph dependent on your point of view) would have been an unlikely aim were it not for the combination of the Bugatti front end plus the double kylchap plus the boiler type plus conjugated valve gear (which, although in the Mallard high speed run latterly ran hot, is inherently good for high speed, driving all onto one axle).
     

Share This Page