Steaming back into Ryde?

He may not get the chance to defend it - the local Conservative Association will be voting on a motion of no confidence tomorrow as the efforts to unseat him continue.

Basically this boils down to the years of bad blood between our MP Andew Turner (or perhaps more accurately his 'highly influential' parliamentary assistant and [former] fiancée), and various local Conservatives including the former leader of the council; a so-called 'cabal' have been trying to force his resignation for some time now and she even had the renewal of her party membership denied, but you may have heard how this infighting finally came to a head with the 'leaking' to the press of the affair between our MP's fiancée and his transport adviser.

I fear all these shenanigans will overshadow actual issues like Island Line and the upcoming meeting with the minister, especially with our MP's transport adviser now in disgrace, but no one can say Island politics is boring...

Chris

 

have you ever thought of independence ? seriously though, it just shows how people will use their position to further their own aims, often at the cost of the people they are supposed to be representing in the past wasn’t the island a liberal strong hold, that’s why you had MP's who were more interested in local issues than furthering your own career in politics, if that’s what’s been at the bottom of all this.

 

The Island isn't going to split from the mainland but there's a genuine possibility mainstream parties could lose control politically; the 'Isle of Wight Independents' have already deposed the former Conservative council and it looks like their Leader will stand for MP too.

As for what this is all about, it appears to be a personality clash - even before his stroke our MP was far from a forceful character (the words 'meek' and 'ineffectual' have been used) unlike his parliamentary assistant and former partner, variously described as domineering, bullying and our MP in all but name.

For whatever reasons she and various local Conservatives really, really don't get along... especially the ambitious former council leader David Pugh, who was overheard plotting on a train in a way which could suggest he orchestrated the leaking of the affair.

Hopefully you can see the dilemma facing the local Conservative Association today - either they alienate voters by siding with Andrew 'no one cares a damn about my expenses' Turner, or they alienate voters by siding with the 'cabal' blatantly plotting to depose him led by Pugh, arguably the most despised politician on the Island...

Chris

 

i would say that if the independent candidate is a popular person, and manages to get in, that may be best outcome for the island? what’s the independents view of what’s best for the island? would they back any proposal that may help the IOWSR, and island line ?

 

Sounds like a certain railway in the south west of England's situation...

 

No reason why they shouldn't, the Independents under the leadership of their prospective MP seem to have already given more attention to the future of Island Line than I recall the Conservatives doing when they were in control, and they have set up a meeting alongside our MP with the Minister to discuss this in a few weeks time.

Chris

 

Well, here goes. A few tentative toe-in-the-water observations.

I am not an IoWSR member or Island resident, for the avoidance of doubt. Therefore, I must of course defer to the greater wisdom of those who are involved in the IoWSR operation, who (on the basis of the volunteer numbers given) seem to be doing a fairly astounding job with their limited resources.

Andrew Turner retained his seat in May, with a somewhat reduced majority, but still 40.7% of the vote - his nearest challenger, the UKIP candidate Iain McKie, got 21.2%. The Lib Dems, who came second in 2010, were beated back to fifth.

The Island Line, it appears to me, is a loss-making operation, long overdue for serious investment which cannot be commercially justified by the operation in its present form.

Public transport on the island is mainly served by Vectis buses: whatever subsidy the council may give to the Island Line could probably be reallocated to greater effect to the bus service.

The IoWSR is very much lacking a destination. It's a pleasant but rather short trip through countryside on old carriages: its northern terminus is only accessible by the aforementioned loss-making rail service.

Electrification of anything right by the Solent appears to be foolish, given the flooding of the pier reported here. One wonders how Portsmouth Harbour station fares in this regard.

The main tourist towns of the island have declined significantly over the years. The run-down Island Line is not attractive to tourists and makes a poor initial statement to visitors arriving Ryde, which is one of the main Solent ports and also the first town most passengers from Fishbourne are likely to encounter.

Now, to turn to the potential...

The IoWSR could, in theory, be gifted the Island Line, which at least goes from somewhere to somewhere. They would, in all likelihood, require a significant amount of external financial support so to do. This is not necessarily impossible to secure: I understand Swanage has obtained something in the region of £5 million in grants etc toward the reinstatement of services to Wareham. Whether this establishes any kind of precedent, I don't know.

Steam on a restored Ryde pier, the Island Line and stations restored, semaphore signalling reinstated and so on (yes, I know, more infrastructure to manage...) would make a vastly more positive statement to those initial visitors, and would I think make a significant difference to tourism traffic both on the line to Wootton and down to Shanklin. I think Paul Hitchcock is being overly pessimistic in suggesting that steam in Ryde would not attract new custom from people who do not currently consider (or perhaps are even completely ignorant of) the IoWSR as an attraction.

There could also be potential, once the above had happened, for further reinstatement - back to Wroxall and Ventnor, for example (says he without checking for trackbed obstructions).

It is not impossible, as some commenters here have mentioned, for a heritage railway's service to fulfill some transport wants and needs. Where there is no possibility of a station close to the centre of a community, it would make sense to provide a vintage bus shuttle linking station and centre.

Given that tourism is the principal driver of the island's economy, were I in a political position so to do, I would make every effort to enable the full reinstatement of all the island lines, including the wholesale demolition of the 1970s concrete eyesores (including that wretched bypass/gyratory thing!) which so mar the otherwise attractive centre of Newport. As has been pointed out, even a small part of this could not be done solely by volunteers, nor could it be done overnight. It would take time and money (large quantities thereof!).

Granted, more locomotives and carriages (most likely new-build) would be required, along with facilities for the storage, maintenance and restoration thereof. One could, given that the Ivatts are establishing a precedent for larger engines, suggest that e.g. an LBSCR I3 4-4-2T might be fitting. There's also that Adams T1 boiler in search of a locomotive. What's the IoWSR's position on tender engines? Clearly, it's not a line for storming 4-6-0s or 2-8-0s (let alone Pacifics or 2-10-0s!), but thinking more of 0-6-0s, 4-4-0s (NRM's LSWR T3?) or even 0-4-2s.

Such details as gradients, line curvature, timetabling etc are entirely outwith my very patchy knowledge of the IoWSR and the rest of the island's railways, and so I leave it to those who are in the know to comment on that.

I wonder what might stand in the way of building the proposed Ventnor funicular?

I realise that a lot of this is firmly in the realms of "wouldn't it be nice if", but there's already a viable steam railway in operation and another line for them potentially to take over, so building on that needn't be downright impossible. A bit of vision and imagination is required.

I'd willingly go down to Ryde to wield tools as required. Could even go and stay at Quarr Abbey to save me the journey to/from Surrey...

---

P.S. Is it permissible on this forum (if not, I apologise and will remove this!) to quote things said by members of this forum on other public media? I'm afraid I took the liberty of Facebook-stalking Paul Hitchcock (well, I Googled "Paul Hitchcock Isle of Wight Railway", top result was a comment he'd made on the IoWSR page) and found a post of his from a couple of years ago which, while indicating that he has excellent taste in music, referred to "over zealous curatorialism" in rather critical terms, expressing relief that it had not been brought to bear on an historic instrument. Is it just me, or is this view somewhat inconsistent with his position that the heritage railway industry has already grown quite enough (possibly too much) and that any further attempt to resurrect long-closed lines is foolish? No criticism is intended, as I realise I too can be rather self-contradictory at times.

 

the elephant in the room is the reason for the use of tube stock.....you were going well until you went into fairyland courtesy of vintage bus links and total re-instatement of lines, not to mention demolishing road infrastructure

 

The problem is that IOWSR does not have the manpower to even start to think about island line, look at what it would entail, At the moment the line and structures are all maintained to operate tube stock, and is a basic railway, with a passing loop at Sandown,and double track between Small brook and ryde Esplanade, the former down line is intact on the pier but disused. to operate any non tube stock would need a programme of superstructure changes at every station, and closures whilst this work is done,
So lets look at this, would any change in owner mean closure notices, could that in turn could lead to the land at St Johns being sold for redevelopment? and the station buildings,assuming they are not already in private hands? so leaving just the trackbed,
Whilst grants may be availible to rebuild the railway would mean employing people full time to do that work, unless it was some kind of local employment scheme where would the work force come from? you are looking at brickies, and engineers, would any grant, be enough to employ the people needed? as this government is all about reducing public expenditure, so any grants would have to be done in a way that the cost is spread,
Rollling stock, some carriages would have to be found and shipped over to the IOW,so any regauging work would mean having to ensure that what ever could be found was going to fit unless you plan a carriage workshop at St Johns making replica IOW coaches?
I cant think of anyone who would not want to see Wroxall and Ventnor re conected to the rail network, but at what cost?
If a grant was availible would it be as much as NR sayes is needed to referbish Island line ? in this day and age grants are not 100 percent of costs, so matched funding, and have strings attached, for instance employing local people, is there enough trainee brick layers and engineers at training schools on the island? as to get any grants would need an employment side to it, as that would be the only way i can see that it would be done

 

this links in with the 'Island Line under threat' thread.

if you ask Island residents do they want Ryde - Shanklin line to continue they will no doubt by a large majority say 'yes'. if however you ask them are you prepared to pay for all the improvements and renewals required to keep it running, not to mention subsidising by £3 every £1 of fares, then they will no doubt by a large majority say 'no'.

the most sensible thing to do is

1. replace the current railway on the pier with something like Hythe Pier

2. let the IOWSR run into Ryde St Johns Road

3. close everything else, and sell off the land and build the long called for and long overdue Brading bypass.

there is some arguement for saying that the IOWSR should run from Ryde St Johns Road to Shanklin, in the same way that the Dart Valley preferred the Torbay - Kingswear line when it became available. i cant see this happening for very many reasons.

of far more concern to Island residents and businesses is the mess the ferry companies are in, the car ferry services being far more important than the other ferry routes.

cheers,
julian

 

If the Island Line were handed to the IoWSR, any decision to sell off land would surely be the IoWSR board's to make? They must certainly insist, if they are to take it over, that they are handed the whole lot so as not to compromise whatever plans they may have. An unhelpful development adjacent to (or, worse, on) the Island Line formation would spell the end of the line, so to speak. If new carriage stock is to be built, it could be built on the mainland (or North Island, as I'm told the residents of the IoW call it!), to the Island loading gauge. Regarding extensions, that was just a nebulous idea I thought I'd mention. I've no idea how much it would cost.

As for road infrastructure - the age of the bypass is over - any proposal to build more must be resisted, and, where one occupies a railway trackbed (as in Newport, or, on the mainland, the A283 between Steyning and Bramber), serious consideration should be given to returning it to railway use. Regarding the possibility of an interlinked vintage bus service - relative to the cost of acquiring and restoring the Island Line, the overheads of acquiring and running the odd vintage bus would be negligible in comparison.

 

The A52 Grantham by-pass/A1 link road construction starts this morning after years of waiting and watching large lorries bumping into railway bridges on the ECML. I'd better go over and tell them to stop it right now. (That said, I'll believe it when its finished!)

 

The A283 now carries a considerable volume of traffic avoiding the A27 bottlenecks. The uproar from Steyning residents if the A283 were returned to its old route would be deafening. There is no possibility of this happening.

 

Point one If the formation was to be handed over, NR does not have to hand over all of the land, does it not have a separate property pofolio? NR will be squeezed by the treasury to make "savings" so would they not wish for maximum return?
The brading bypass is a non starter, the track bed isnt anywhere near wide enough to turn into a road, and IOWCC dont have any money
My wish would be for IOWSR to be able to run to St Johns, with a connnection into island line just before the tunnel, and for it to still be part of the national network, that the line get referbished with loading gauge tweeks so that surface stock can be used eitther 313 or 120 units transfered an agreement for NR to hire in an engine and wagons when needed for renewals, from the steam railway, a run round with hand operated points be laid in at Shanklin so that the PW train, can run round, talks about a very limited number of steam on island line specials on out of season sundays between Esplanade and Shanklin to raise additional income, at a time when the steam railway would be closed, or running a one train service.

 

The age of the bypass is not over, the automobile is not dead and oil is not at$200 a barrel. Things will gradually change over time but the seismic shift away from car ownership is a bit of a way off. (All I need is another 15 years in the car industry and I can retire....)
Today is the start of the Frankfurt Motor Show and the industry has some pretty good things to say. I will be there for most of the week and hearing first hand the mood of the industry.

 

The station at Brading is looked after by the Brading Heritage Group who have spent some considerable time (years) restoring Brading Station and Signal Box. I think they would be against a bypass replacing the railway. Should the Railway ever sadly close, then may be the bit to Brading could be taken over in first instance in a joint IWSR/Brading Heritage Group project the distance involved is not too far, and would keep Smallbrook as a junction.

 

What may work is that if groups of like minded people could adopt a station , at peppercorn rents ensure each station is maintained and kept in a suitable semi - preserved scheme, reproduction signs etc, then that may go somewhere to helping the overall look of the stations ,prehaps Wightlink could be persuaded to fit replica gates to pier head and train deparurte boards, so the initial image , including the tea room would be of how it was in the 1950's
i would love to see semaphore signals re instated even if they are electrically operated by cable from St johns panel and Shanklins disused platform rebuilt with a passing loop , if havenstreet can spare an odd wagon that is U/S,, perhaps a local business could sponsor it and it could be repainted as a private owners wagon and placed on a short section of track at Brading on the bay platform side

 

Steam on Ryde Pier - take on a liability like that - you'd have to be nuts. Many of the IOWSR's bogie carriages are needing a complete underframe rebuild becasue of corrossion from having run on the pier. There's no way they'd want to expose them to that again. Plus the maintenance liability of the pier is astronomical - no the best bet for the pier is national funds to restore it to enable a public service to be run from Pier Head and IOWSR are not in that sort of business.

This doesn't need vision and imagination - it needs insanity.

David R

 

Restore PS Ryde to provide the railway connection to Portsmouth Harbour?

 

Enterprise, I haven't seen the former route of the A283 but I have been told that it was originally planned to use a wholly new route, before the railway closed, but reused the railway formation to save some piffling sum. For what it's worth, I've had friends who lived in Steyning, including a shop-owner there (now sadly deceased, long before his time), who view that bypass as having drained the economic life out of the place. As that road and others - e.g. the North Devon link road built over most of the western half of the Barnstaple-Taunton branch - have proved, railways aren't wide enough to be turned into roads, and so considerable additional property demolition and widening of earthworks are required.

David, that makes me wonder, could the carriage underframes (once restored) be protected with some kind of sacrificial underfloor, made of e.g. fibreglass or shellac'd marine ply? IoWSR taking on the pier itself is probably not a good idea - better for the pier to have its own holding company, perhaps with a charitable arm, into which IoW council, Wightlink etc pay...

Johnofwessex, restoring PS Ryde wouldn't necessarily be impossible - it may be that the engines remain in at least salvageable condition - but it would clearly require a hell of a lot of new metal, and one would have to presume 100% new boiler, hull and superstructure... again, not impossible, just expensive... even new engines could be built... and it'd be a hang sight more appealing for foot passengers than the Wightlink ro-ro ferries...