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Steam Hoover

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Bikermike, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    It could be seen as focusing on propulsion - it ought to be this is the Steam Traction section - and it is looking at speed. The question is about what might have been possible during a certain period looking at a specific application.

    Could a steam locomotive be designed during this period which would deliver the power output of a class 50? The answer is yes. Could a locomotive be designed which would offer a continuous power output which matched it? Again the answer is yes.
    If it could be done, could it have been done here? I would say it would be most unlikely. The best locomotive engineers were not here in the UK, they were elsewhere.

    The question of developing rolling stock to offer different facilities for passengers is for those who work in this field. Meeting the power requirements would involve consultation and development. When the question was asked, Westinghouse maintained that was no problem in fitting improved, more modern braking systems to steam locomotives. Single-manning, the N & W had worked on this and it was possible. Multiple unit working would also have been possible. Raise the issue concerning an identified requirement and obtain answers and solutions. If you don't adequately raise the question you don't get answers and you can get the answers you want by not asking.
     
  2. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    BR class 7 had a boiler with max diameter 2020mm and Belpaire corners.
    Centerline was 2844mm over rail.
    SNCF 4-8-0 had max diameter 1850mm 2850mm over rail.
     
  3. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thank you for those figures: so you wouldn't need to lower the 240P's boiler to fit the British loading gauge. What about the outside cylinders? What was their diameter?
     
  4. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    Skoda did produce some good locomotives, no doubting that. The US designs benefited from the ability to produce and incorporate the cast steel bed. This offered rigidity and largely removed the need to include fasteners in the frame construction. The 141R had a cast steel bed and images of this item can be found online. A glance at this and a glance at the equivalent for 498.1 will let you see the difference.
    I appreciate that the 141R would not fit within the UK loading gauge but I would want this quality of design and construction and attention to detail. We couldn't adopt the 597 mm (23 7/8") cylinder diameter but the working pressure being only 220 psi did leave open an area for compensation. Some alterations to the original template would be required but that does not change the quality of that template.
     
  5. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    420mm or 16.535", the inside l.p. cylinders were 650mm/25.591" and the starting tractive effort was 58,540 lbf.
     
  6. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Th 240P`s outside cylinders had a diameter of 440mm and the maximum overall width of the 240P`s was 3118 mm.:)

    Knut
     
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  7. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    My take is 440mm outside high pressure cylinders sitting 2230mm apart.
    LNER P2 was 535 cylinders sitting 2045 apart.
     
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  8. clinker

    clinker New Member

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    It's got to many pony wheels, not enough outside cylinders, to many inside cylinders, the (belpaire) boiler's to small and it's got a tender, however if Holden had designed a Stratford built 9F..........
     
  9. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    The 9F`s seems to have had enough power for they duties. Maybe they would built more of them?
     
  10. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    Good point, you would need to beef up the bearings though.

    Also of course a 'proper' front end, and probably a mechanical stoker.

    Then you need to deal with the freights, working conditions, stations & carriages.

    How was power provided to the newer American coaches that didnt have opening windows but were steam hauled or worked by non ETH (HEP) fitted loco's
     
  11. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    The 9F lacked many features which would allow it to attain US levels of utilisation. Weighing in at around 89 tons by the standards of the early 1940s it should have been able to sustain in excess of 3,500 ihp, coming some 20 years after the benchmark was set it should have been able to do significantly better. So the answer is to look elsewhere and really build something fit for purpose. I have travelled on the mainline behind a 9F and found the performance to be inconsistent but this is only my experience and so counts for little.
     
  12. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    I think you are absolutely right that any design would start from the point of view of the economics of it rather than speed/power:

    i) ease of maintenance - taking into account the labour shortage in the years after WW2
    ii) high availability - route and reliability (no good having a loco if it spends more time in the shed than out earning)
    iii) efficiency (whether this is regular fast and short or less frequent longer trains)

    Watching old BR films from Pathe during dieselisation it is clear that it was presented as not just a technical change but an environmental improvement. I recall watching one film based around I think Devons Road and the driver training and one of the drivers talking about how nice it was to go home with a clean collar.

    My personal view is that if tasked with designing a locomotive to bridge the gap between steam and electrification (skipping the diesel stage) I think these would be the design priorities

    I pity the person who sees 'Preparation H' on their task list.
     
  13. Allegheny

    Allegheny New Member

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    An upgraded version of the LNER P1 also springs to mind.
     
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    BTW, why is this thread called "steam hoover"? Surely you need to blow, not suck?

    Tom
     
  15. Allegheny

    Allegheny New Member

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    It might be something to do with the draughting.:)
     
  16. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

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    All depends on which end of the pipe you are looking at.:):)
     
  17. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    Isnt 'Steam Hoover' something you get at Steampunk events?
     
  18. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    I suspect it's to do with the comparison to the class 50s that were used to accelerate the WCML north of Crewe before it was electrified. As a good diesel fan, you'll know that they're nicknamed "Hoovers", in tribute to the sound they made (until refurbished) through their air filter system, which was allegedly vacuum cleaner like.
     
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  19. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    I thought that was probably the meaning, but it's always good for someone to confirm such information to prevent confusion.

    I seem to recall that the specification for the 50s was to pull trains at similar speeds up Shap and Beattock to what the electrics could do south of Crewe, so they needed more power than could be fitted into a single locomotive and were intended to run in pairs. Have I got that right?

    If that was the spec, then a steam equivalent would be a very tall order. One of Chapelon's beasts could match a single 50, but not a pair, so you'd need double heading, and that means two crews, or at least two firemen, because even with a mechanical stoker you need a fireman on the footplate to control the stoker and manage the boiler. It's questionable whether you could replace the fireman by electronics even now, and it surely would have been impossible in the 1960s.
     
  20. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    I don't know what the spec was, but they certainly did run regularly in pairs in that period.

    Repeating an earlier point, the 50s were also fitted with ETH but not steam heat, so supported running air conditioned stock as BR upgraded Inter City services. Assuming that steam could provide the raw horsepower, could steam have supported that upgrade in the passenger environment?
     

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