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Sir Nigel Gresley - The L.N.E.R.’s First C.M.E.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, Dec 3, 2021.

  1. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The problem of proposed electrification schemes was the principle of cost. The Southern under Sir Herbert Walker considered it cheaper to continue with the LSWR 3rd rail (including cost of converting existing alternatives) rather than adopt an alternative system whether that of the LBSCR or the SER. Gresley on the other hand adopted the 1.5kV Overhead simply because the LNER had the experience of Raven to hand thus electrification was Gresley's normal action in developing existing systems but denied by the up-front costs. Even the desecration of removing the Shildon network arose because the availability of steam traction provided a cheaper alternative to overhauling the run-down network - an important factor to a cash-strapped railway. It may be a cause of regret but the railway has always suffered the problems of short term cost competing with long term futures - as evidence by the current decision to cut HS2 north of Birmingham despite any long term benefits that might accrue.
     
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  2. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    There is a homegrown calculator described here
    https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/14790-imaginary-locomotives/page/220/
    From memory this early morning the final miles at 124.5mph
    it was half ihp from gravity and half from boiler and machinery.
    Air resistance dominates and power needed is a qube function of speed so same Mallard/ train could have done ca 100 mph on a very long,straigth and level road

    Another method can be to compare with Tornados 101.5 mph on level road and two busy firemen.What was total length of the two trains?

    I have copied Tornado 45,4m/sec run from above mentioned link




    Total train length 190meter making 1420 kW heating of air

    Total train mass 485000kg making 347 kW oil and rail heating

    total demand on locomotive 2400 indicated horsepower.



    We asume that an A1 can do 31410 lbs of steam per hour from 4260 lbs of coal showelled by two firemen.

    This is the One hour figure from mr Cox/Britania.

    A V2 used 13.2lbs at best opperating condition and gives 2400 ihp on Tornado if it steams as well as a BR7.

    The continious 3000lbs/h coal showelled by one unionized fireman makes 24000 lbs steam per hour or ca1800 indicated horsepower.

    A drag plate area of 0.13squaremeter per meter train and a rolling resistance coefficient 0f 0,0015 gives reasonable estimates of steam train speed possible.

    Thank You for reading
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  3. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    Sir Sam Fay smiles wryly, takes a sip of his pint, and continues to eat his sandwich.
     
  4. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Let's not get into speed records here, plenty of old topics!
     
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    If I'd been an investor back then Fay would be a man to follow, but for the present day I suggest 'si monumentum requiris circumspice' applies.
     
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  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Quite possibly, but (as with engineers), there is a small cadre of truly outstanding senior managers whose performance should be acknowledged. Fay and Walker are both prominent within that august company, and "si monumentum" applies aptly to Fay if you pay a visit to Immingham - equally as forward looking an investment as Walker's in the SR suburban network.

    To those two, I would add Josiah Stamp, Lord Ashfield, and Peter Parker.
     
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  7. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    If the A4 had continued the effort involved in reaching 125/126 mph ( and in practice AFAIK the
    loco was eased immediately: it was I understand not in a good state when stopped at Peterborough )
    what speed would have subsequently been maintained on the level.

    The maximum IHP attained with an A4 has been c. 3000 - 3100 ( in preservation 60009 ascending Stoke
    in the Down direction at 70-74 mph ) . If ( and it’s a big if ) this level of performance could be
    sustained for more than a few minutes it would give a balancing speed with 200 tons of c.105 mph.

    ( I have based this on R = 23.0lbs/ton at 105 mph. This will obviously be wind dependent.
    So the HP for the 200 ton train is 1288 i.e. c. 1250 - 1350.
    The HP to move the loco at this speed will be c. 1600-1800. )

    As a matter of note descending from Stoke the initial is 2.8 miles at 1/178, then 1.5 miles almost
    level and then 1/200 over the next 4.5 miles to beyond Little Bytham. There is a short stretch
    at 1/264 after Essendine,

    Papyrus achieved 108mph down the 1/200 at Little Bytham ?

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  8. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    I wasn’t thinking of legacies, but if we’re going to, I admit it’s a bit intangible to say that his legacy consists (aside from Immingham and a load of disused bridges in Northamptonshire) of the existence of the Department of Transport as a government ministry, and at a bit more of a stretch but at least arguably, the distinct lack of Imperial German troops in France (amongst other places).

    I confess this is drifting off-topic but it’s a throwaway reply in defence of my throwaway comment! :) Back to the subject at hand…
     
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  9. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    ? The Great Central was a total dog financially (as was the LNER for most of its life). The GCR preferred ordinary stock did not receive a dividend after1898, and the deferred ordinary nothing after 1889. Probably not Fay's fault as the company just could not earn enough to service its capital.
     
  10. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    A V2 on test plant after modifications made maximum 31000 lbs/h steam and used 15.7 lbs/ihph and thus 1970 ihp
    If by magic applying minimum indicating consumption 13.7 lbs/h at real high speed with middle cylinder overrun etc we get max 2250 IHP.
    My resistance formula needs total train length in meters,total mass in kg ,gradient and wind speed.
    Anybody know the missing Mallard/Stoke values from 1938?

    http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastloco-11.jpg

    410 tons total,gradient 240 is lowering 233mm per second at 56 m/sec is gravity gift 937 kW or 1270 horepower.

    My morning memory is unreliable

    If rolling coefficient is 0,0015 the nessecary power at 56mSec is 460 horsepower.

    Length of train ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  11. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thanks Michael, interesting. Yes I was misremembering where Papyrus did that record.
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    upload_2023-11-17_16-7-25.png

    IMG_1365.jpg

    IMG_1370.jpg

    It exists! I have my sample copy in my hands. I cannot believe the size and weight in relation to the Thompson book.
     
  13. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    I received mine last Saturday after ordering on Thursday. I was surprised with the weight. I like that the phamhlets for The Silver Jubilee, The Coronation and The West Riding are included. Having two copies of the Silver Jubilee myself, which were my grandfather's, I find them fascinating.
     
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  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I really wanted to put them in as I know many people haven’t got them. This allows those would like to see them an opportunity outside of eBay!
     
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  15. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I reckon @S.A.C. Martin should put on a good suit; shave off the beard; get his moustache & hair trimmed like Sir Nige - then try this pose again :)
     
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  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I’m a bit fatter in fairness to Sir Nige!
     
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  17. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    Book will be enjoyed and admired by many and that is a very kind and real gift to steam-locomotive fans.
    Much nicer than football and politics.
    Thank You and congratulations for having finished in style.
     
  18. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    Moved
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2023
  19. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Yes, I am very grateful for the plug. I found their websites and publications very helpful when putting my book together.
     
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