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Sir Nigel Gresley - The L.N.E.R.’s First C.M.E.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, Dec 3, 2021.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think depots probably would not have had too many problems with either pumping or fire risk. Remember, there had been widespread adoption of oil firing in ca. 1926 during the coal strike, which required tanks and handling procedures for the fuel, and the railway companies adapted very quickly.

    But that enabled a coal-fired steam loco to be converted to an oil-fired steam loco. There would have been minimal impact on fitters, duties, crew skills etc etc. The germane issues for introducing diesel shunters would seem to me much less about fuel, and more to do with needing fitters skilled in different trades; changes to union-agreed duties such as prep and disposal times, driver training etc. So introducing diesel shunters has a lot of "soft" knock on effects that are probably of greater magnitude than handling oil fuel on a steam depot.

    Tom
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    So, a significant downturn in manufacturing processes. The post by @Enterprise [#289] mentions the decline in minerals traffic, where I'd (perhaps naïvely) assumed the bulk was coal, domestic and gas production demand for which must've held up reasonably well. Thinking on it though, the GW did find itself with a class of brand new 2-8-0Ts which needed rebuilding with a rear pony truck before finding gainful employment, so point taken.

    If non-coal minerals demand for imdustry fell off a cliff during the depression, I'm a bit surprised to have never come across any specific mention in regard of the china clay traffic in the south west .... and am now wondering if this is where I find out it was a factor!
     
  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    upload_2021-12-13_12-58-17.png

    I just can't see that this argument really stands scrutiny where the LNER is concerned. Around 160 loco classes, nearly 200 boiler types until a big cull of types in 1944, still leaving 170 boiler types. You then have the different ferrous and non ferrous parts, castings, fabrications...I simply don't see that there are "a lot of common parts" between most of the LNER's classes. It's the complete opposite, if anything.
     
  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    If I may Tom, it's more in my view the cost of building the infrastructure for it in the first place, but I take your points happily.
     
  5. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    Ref the fall-out from the 1929 crash and subsequent depression, the LNER loco numbers give a possible clue to the impact on the LNER. The total LNER loco stock stayed almost the same through the 1920s, from 7392 on formation to 7378 at the end of 1929. It then falls steadily through the 1930s, down to 6476 at the end of 1939, which is about a 12% reduction.

    It may of course be that measures were taken to improve engine utilization during the 1930s, in which case the stock reduction would not be entirely due to the trade recession.
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes, but the point is that companies introduced oil firing to some depots almost overnight - so I don't think teh infrastructure, probably limited to just one or two depots with a diesel shunter, would have been very difficult at all. The other issues look like the larger, more systemic reasons not to introduce them.

    Tom
     
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  7. Victor

    Victor Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    No diesel depot storage has pressurised storage tanks, all that is required is a bund wall around the tank. As for fuel storage, after a few decades in the business I do have just a bit of experience.
     
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  8. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    How do you keep a fuel tank with a vent pipe under pressure?
     
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  9. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    And minutes were not really written for the benefit of historians, but primarily as an aide-memoire for the people who had been at the meetings, or at worst closely involved with events. So often what you want to know as a researcher was simply not recorded.
     
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  10. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Arguably, steam loco infrastructure is much more costly than diesel loco infrastructure, especially where mechanised coaling plants and ash disposal systems were provided. Drivers can also refuel a diesel loco without any help, not so with a coal fired steam loco. At its most basic, though, a diesel shunter requires nothing more than a couple of barrels of fuel and a hand pump.
     
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  11. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    Water too. Diesels don't need anything like as much, just for the radiator and heating boiler (if fitted)
     
  12. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I spite of our differences, I don’t envy you the task of reading that lot.
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    What I am finding fascinating is how we're now getting into the detail of the issues, and I must confess to feeling enlightened on diesel fueling systems and infrastructure (standing happily, corrected).

    It can be a fascinating task but my god does it take a long time!
     
  14. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    For sure, but you have a source base. If the record is silent on the matter then the record is silent.

    I don't find the cost benefit argument very convincing because of the other things that the LNER was doing at the time. Considering it was looking at electrification, plus the concentration on high end passenger services and niche loco fleets, I find it hard to imagine that diesel shunters would have a worse cost benefit analysis.
     
  15. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    While I never 'c0nverted' from coal to oil fired ships and of course the Wallsend oil fuel system is very different to the system used on locomotives, I cant see anything in it that would provide any real issues to an engineer who had previously worked on coal burners so I am sure that the same would apply to oil fired locomotives.
     
  16. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    No-one has answered my question about whether the planned Gresley 4-8-2 was just a P2 with a front bogie or if they had managed to inject a few more steroids into the design - is there anything in existence that gives a clue?
     
  17. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It’s a draughtsmans line drawing and isn’t much more than that. It looks like a Pacific stretched and it normally shows 6ft 8in wheels instead of the 6ft 2in as on the P2.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2021
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  18. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It depends on personality and company ethos.

    I recall that Ivatt was committed to diesel traction and the LMS Board authorised the building of 2 diesel locomotives (1 to be equivalent to a Class 5 4-6-0 and 2 to be equivalent to a Coronation 4-6-2 Pacific) and 2 Coronation Class locomotives (46256 / 7 to be equipped with the latest technology) for direct comparison. Gresley on the other hand built his A4s to prove the superiority of steam over diesel to beat the German "Flying Hamburger" trainset which was diesel powered but ran as a 2-car trainset.
    This also ignores his contribution to electrification given that he specified / designed the first Class 76 in 1976 to work the Woodhead route which IIRC was the first stage of a proposed electrification of the full GCR route to London. Note that Gresley followed the principles defined by Raven during his post-Grouping work electrification on behalf of the LNER but sadly WWII interfered with that scheme hence Gresley never saw the fruition of this element of his work.
     
  19. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Deleted
     
  20. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    This is the point I've been trying to make.

    It is the company ie the board and it also is the designer.

    Now, no one is disputing that the LNER along with the Southern were ahead (or further along the curve) when it came to electrification. But I think it is clear that they were behind the curve on using diesels for shunting.

    And the decision to try to prove the superiority of steam over diesel looks in hindsight like Don Quixote tilting at windmills, or Canute demanding the tide retreat

    Part of re-assessing Gresley is about drawing out the nuances of LNER loco policy and then the second point is trying to unpack the whys and hows as to those decisions were made. And that is the fun part of doing archival research
     

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