If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Sandringham New Build(s)

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by D6332found, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. Hicks19862

    Hicks19862 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2015
    Messages:
    472
    Likes Received:
    288
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manchester
    What exactly is the point of building a static example?
     
  2. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,764
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    White Rose County
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I guess you could show it to visitors in your back garden! I was being a little sarcastic I must admit, when I said that the "Footballer" seems to be being built as a static example. They are going to have to do much more serious stuff than the cosmetic stuff they appear to be doing at the moment. That said, if you have an artefact that looks very much like a complete steam loco you might be able to entice people to part with a considerable amount of money to turn it into a real steam locomotive, or perhaps not. We shall see, but I personally believe that the Sandringham project has far more chance of ever coming to fruition.
     
  3. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    658
    Likes Received:
    616
    In one of their better pieces of journalism, the "Beano" recently said that the 61662 project "needed greater clarity around its objectives", or words to that effect. An absolute masterpiece of diplomatic reporting!
     
  4. Davo

    Davo New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2018
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    W yorkshire 56f
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was just browsing through the previous thread pages about the 2 B17 new builds but come across 1 about the L.N.W. bloomer new build the oldest new build project somate i dident know it started in 1986 is there any1 at tyseley currently doing any work on this project to complete it at present. Anyhow i see man united B17 making a bit o steady progress wi the skeleton boiler cladding frames strips o metal is man united B17 goin to run or a static exhibit does any1 know?
     
  5. Davo

    Davo New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2018
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    W yorkshire 56f
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    If it cost £1.8 m to get B17 man united to steam id sponser her if that means 2 B17,s steaming in 10 .20 years time seen as though the L.N.E.R. Suffered badly wi how many engines were saved into preservation era compared to G.W.R. and L.M.S. Locos what were saved in quite vast numbers the L.N.E.R. ONLY managed wi nearly 1 o each of its engines preserved barring the J 94,s A4,s and B1,s so good luck to both on thease projects
     
  6. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    365
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Hi Davo
    I think the Man U project is only going to be a static outline.....unless one of the players donated a few weeks salary!
    The other project will produce a main line running B17, sooner, if it gets more money faster!
     
  7. Davo

    Davo New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2018
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    W yorkshire 56f
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well i thought £1.8m dosent sound right to get this man united p roject steaming id ave thought at least in the £1000,000 MARK. I say what the B17 spirit o sandringham to steam when complete. I believe reading the steam railway magazine the next task is raising money to cast the wheel sets 4 it if this project is to do is use the tender from doncaster (bought scrap condition) on the spirit o sandringham project at llangollen if that loco is completed they got a head start 1st out of the 2 projects
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  8. Davo

    Davo New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2018
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    W yorkshire 56f
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well according to the website on the manchester united B17 its going to run mainline and to be stabled either at the east lancs r,way or severn valley r,way when complete
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    15,992
    Likes Received:
    22,694
    Location:
    21C102
    That's not what the website says. It actually says:

    'When not required for Main Line duties, we intend to hire the locomotive out for use on UK Heritage Railways such as the East Lancs Railway, the Worth Valley Railway or the Severn Valley Railway etc where it will be a major attraction."
    Note the words "such as". In other words, the group is saying that it could be hired to those railways, but that's not the same as actually having an agreement in place. You could pretty well say it could be hired to to railways "such as" more or less any standard gauge line in the country; which doesn't really say much more than that wheels will be the right distance apart.

    The whole website feels a bit disingenuous to me. For example, on the "about us" page, they have links to about half a dozen major heritage railways, but I'm not aware that any of those listed has any connection to the project; including their names looks to me a slightly underhand way to try to afford an aura of credibility by association that the project doesn't seem to have.

    Tom
     
    MuzTrem, Sheff, 35B and 7 others like this.
  10. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    A locomotive of this size from scratch, and being built for the mainline with a large amount of paid workforce to build it will easily cost £3 million pounds, possibly more. Remember there is the electronic equipment, support coach etc to pay for. So raising £100,000 per year would still take 30 years to achieve this goal. And bearing in mind that a lot of loco groups are being funded by people who remember steam pre 68, how many of these will still be around to see it steam? There are many people who simply will not donate on that basis. As it stands there is only the P2 (A1 trust), Patriot, Grange, 82045 that have the proven ability to raise over £100,000 on a regular basis. Possibly the Atlantic as well as I can't see the income for that project. None of the other new builds achieve anywhere near the £100,000 per year amount, and unless something changes simply won't steam or ever be finished. Brutal as that may sound it's the harsh reality.
     
  11. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    365
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Gav106 makes a very good point and conventional thinking shows he is correct......However the whole railway preservation movement is a triumph of emotional thought overcoming conventional thinking.....eventually. If some of these new builds do take longer than hoped for (In fact All of them!) then will it matter in the longer term 60 + years?
    We "older" people are used to disbelief, many years ago I "wasted my money" by joining a group called the MLPG......as if they would ever get a Main Line to Preserve ......
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    15,992
    Likes Received:
    22,694
    Location:
    21C102
    Gav - Beachy Head is also in that ballpark. Because the funding is going through the Bluebell Railway Trust rather than an independent group, you have to look at the Trust accounts and follow the changes in the restricted fund income / expenditure to see what is being raised. But as an example, in 2015 £108k was raised and £60k spent; in 2016, £100k was raised and £136k spent; in 2017 the figures were £86k raised and £83k spent. There is roughly £150k available in the restricted fund that represents a surplus of income over expenditure down the years which means the group has a buffer to continue work while income fluctuates.

    I don’t know what the final projected cost will be, but I suspect somewhere in the region of £1.2m. That is kept down by the existence of a boiler in good condition, otherwise it would probably have been > £1.5m I suspect. Unlike some other projects (like the Patriot, much discussed elsewhere) it is being constructed directly on the railway rather than contracted out to a professional engineering base. Many individual components are obviously made at a wide variety of engineering companies, but the final machining and fitting is done in house, which keeps the cost down and allows a tighter grip on quality control (!) but does require having people with the skills and time available to do so.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
    CH 19, Bluenosejohn, jnc and 5 others like this.
  13. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    Yes exactly. If you are lucky enough to have those skills that's fantastic and can be a massive cost saving. However many of the new build groups don't have that luxury. People always go on about how preservation is always doing the impossible and can give many many examples of doing so. But preservation is also full of many failures, projects that have bitten the dust, locomotives that still haven't been restored, and some that haven't even been started on yet. And it's my belief that new builds will be the same. Some will make it, and others will not.
     
  14. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    365
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    "..... locomotives that still haven't been restored, and some that haven't even been started on yet. And it's my belief that new builds will be the same. Some will make it, and others will not.[/QUOTE]"
    Very true .... but of the 211 locomotives that came out of Barry 150 have now steamed and the majority of the rest are being worked on. The demand for working steam engines is slowly but steadily increasing so New builds will be needed.......but as you say, not all projects will succeed.
     
    Kinghambranch and Gav106 like this.
  15. garth manor

    garth manor New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    91
    It would be interesting to see a table of comparative timelines for new builds by someone with time on their hands, Tornado took about 18 years from initial meetings to steam up, there are NG examples like Taleisin, Lyd, which I think were slightly quicker, but for SG given the very favourable funding the A1SLT managed to win it seems that many of the new build projects will sadly fail as their supporters dwindle. Some new builds are already 20 years old, 82045 and G 5 should arrive but the likes of Sandringham, Prince George ??
     
    Gav106 and jnc like this.
  16. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    3,347
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'd be equally curious to learn how folks see the "tipping point" at which any given project* goes from 'nice idea' to gaining credibility in the eyes potential supporters and the wider heritage movement.

    ..... and let's not forget, new-build-wise, La'al Ratty was way ahead of the curve, half a century ago, with "River Mite"!

    * except, of course, anything in the sights of A1SLT, whose exemplary track record probably means they could, by now, credibly announce a new-build C7 'Stumpf Uniflow' atlantic ... with booster and without being carted off by men in white coats!
     
    Sheff likes this.
  17. Steve

    Steve Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,110
    Likes Received:
    4,192
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'd suggest a credible business plan and a base would be a good start. Add the involvement of someone well known and credible in the industry and you'll have a head start over lesser schemes.
     
    Bluenosejohn and Jamessquared like this.
  18. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    The Spirit of Sandringham group have gone from raising £9,460 five years ago, to just shy of £50,000 in the 2016/17 year. Their next set of accounts should be online very soon as it's about this time of year that they update them on the charities commission website. I'm really hoping for another jump higher in fundraising as this is one of the projects I like the most of the other new builds. If this can get upto the £100,000 plus I think it could really start to move forward.

    As to when the tipping point is, it's difficult to say. It also depends when a project started, what it had to start with etc. The didcot projects all start with a large amount of parts to start to assemble. That helps in one way, but can also put off potential supporters who wanted the original locos to be restored.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    15,992
    Likes Received:
    22,694
    Location:
    21C102
    I was going to make a basically similar point. With regard a "base", at a minimum you clearly need to be somewhere with access to space, tools, power, lifting equipment and so on. I'd go further and suggest undercover space will save a ton of money and time in the long run. In its early days, the Beachy Head project raised money to construct a proper workshop building at Sheffield Park, with enough space for the loco and tender, enough height for lifting operations, a solid floor, good quality lighting and so on. It looked something of a luxury at the beginning of the project when there wasn't much in existence except a boiler and a set of rusty tender frames, but the time and effort saved since - rather than having to spend a substantial part of every working day setting up / striking down; and being affected by the vagaries of weather through the winter months - must have saved time out of all proportion to what went into its construction. Plus, once the project is finished, the building still remains as a useful asset to the railway for another long-term project.

    Tom
     
    69530, jnc, Bluenosejohn and 3 others like this.
  20. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    Tom, would you also say that being part of a railway can assist as well. The Atlantic is very lucky to be a direct part of the whole railway. That again gives instant credibility. And also the ability to use the railways magazine to talk to potential donors as well. The 82045 project has also benefitted with its very close ties to the SVR. It didn't make much progress in its early years when it was down at the SDR.
    6880 was formed by the guys who had just finished 5199.
    The P2 has progressed because it's the A1 trust behind it.
     

Share This Page