s160 2253 in NYMR clear out

Wealthy individual? If that isn't enough to make anyone feel helpless...

I know I do, not being in any position to do so myself.

On the other hand, I really hope that this locomotive does find a decent home. The very idea of considering it for scrap, whatever condition it's in, flies straight in the face of the Barry Scrapyard survivors that came back from conditions far worse even than that! I also find it completely baffling that the American nature of its prototype makes it strangely unpopular - the Churnet Valley manage alright with this prototype and yet so many other railways ignore its wartime connection to this country, as if it were tenuous.

As for The Great Marquess, that did indeed run one of the last steam powered services over the North York Moors - now if only NELPG had that engine to complement the K1 and keep the West Highland Jacobite on a stable motive power base...och, I dream of that many times!

 

For what it's worth, a member of the NYMR Trust Board has already said in this thread that the S160 won't be scrapped, and that an overhaul plan exists in case she doesn't find a buyer.

 

Well in that case support is still needed for the loco whatever happens so even though its simple i have set up a face book group to raid awareness of the loco.
The value of the loco is 65,000 to 75,000.
many thanks
Patrick

 

rumour is 6046 is going from the CVR to the NYMR for the remainder of the season, so they can't dislike them too much.

 

Not rumour. I was on the last footplate turn today before her planned departure this Tuesday.

 

Is it correct that this class of engine needs careful water management? I recall reading about issues that arose during their service in the UK during WW2. It was either an issue with an "unusual" type of water guage, or the relative narrowness of the firebox water space on top of the crown.

Just out of interest can some kind soul clarify please?

Many thanks

46118

 

Can't remember the exact details ( I can look up tonight) but essentially it was an issue with the design of gauge frame that was unfamiliar to British crews. The result was that, due to the crew not testing in a way that was appropriate to the design, the connection to one end of the gauge glass was left almost closed, such that it gave a reading that was falsely high with ultimately disastrous results. Can't remember if the design was subsequently changed, or whether it was a case of providing revised instructions of how to test with that design.

Tom

 

Deleted - duplicate post

 

6046 is fitted with UK style gauge frames, so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Thanks, thats appreciated.

Like Tom. I've seen it mentioned in a book somewhere, possibly one of the Harold Gasson books about working on the GWR in wartime.

 

I'd melt both...

Yes its a powerful engine and the line needs them for the peak season, but the tendancy is to think of the bank to Goathland as something thats really huge. A standard 4MT can cope with it, so your needing something akin to a 4MT or 5MT. Engines that are bigger get the job done with power to spare. The S160 isnt needed, it will cost more to overhaul than buying in a better engine or at least buying one that wouldnt need as much to overhaul. As for 29 and No. 5 - they would be fine to work the line when the season is quieter...

A year or so ago the lines roster looked great.... K4, 4MT, Q6, B1, A4, Black 5...

 

I think most of that is nonsense, to be honest. The line can be worked by 4MTs, but as Steve has shown a number of times on here, they are working close to their limits and have little in hand to restart if they stall on the bank. Remember, the problem with Goathland Bank isn't just that it is steeply graded, it is also sharply curved most of the way up and that increases the drag of the train. The S160 should cost the same or less than a copper fireboxed engine to overhaul, but its purchase price was a fraction of that of an ex-BR engine. If you can show the NYMR where they can get an out of ticket Black 5 or 8F for £80,000 that they can overhaul for the same price as an out of ticket S160 I'm sure they'd be pleased to hear of it. It isn't to everyone's taste, but an S160 overhauled to UK standards and with some anglicisation of its cab would be well suited to the NYMR. It'll be interesting to see how crews take to 6046, which apparently has been modified in this way. I suspect we might see a rethink for 2253.

 

Most American locos have the top gauge glass fitting attached, via a pipe, to a fitting on the top of the boiler or to the manifold. IIRC on the S160's the top shut off was one of many similar wheels on the manifold and could be closed or partly closed by mistake leading to a false reading. I also think I read it in Harold Gasson's book but it was described in greater detail in 'Over Here the story of the S160'. Apparently a notice was fitted in the cab warning "This valve always to be in the open position" - the word "FULLY" was inserted later.

'Always had a soft spot for S160's having been lucky enough to see them at work in Hungary, Turkey and China. It was showing him the photos of KD6's at Fushun that inspired Derek Foster to buy his "Chinese Takeaway". Ray.

 

Why would an S160 cost more to overhaul than a Std 4? Because it's a bit bigger? As you say, it'll have power to spare amd be working well within its design limits, unlike a Std 4 where you'll have to thrash it to get the same performance. Which will wear out quicker, and cost more to overhaul?

 

There were three such accidents, covered in some depth in "Locomotive Boiler Explosions" by CH Hewison.

As Ray says, the root cause was the steam shut off to the top of the gauge glass (as supplied, the locos had one prismatic gauge glass, and three try cocks). The cocks on the gauge glass (upper, lower and drain cocks) were screw valves, rather than the more common taps fitted to many British Locos. Thus the position of the operating control did not immediately show whether the valves were open or shut. The steam cock was mounted high above the glass, connected via a rod 30 inches long to its operating wheel. The advantage of that arrangement was that, in the event of a problem, the steam cock could be shut well away from the source of escaping steam and the risk of scalds, but one disadvantage (to my eyes) is that the long control spindle would be prone to knocks and bumps affecting its operation, as subsequently proved to be the case. After the first accident, subsequent testing showed that the measured water level was sensitive to how far open the steam cock was, to the extent that the true and measured water levels could vary by as much as 12" according to how well opened the cock was, with the error giving a reading that was falsely high.

The first accident was at Honeybourne (GWR) on 17 November 1943 on locomotive 2403. The crown sheet caved in, mortally wounding the fireman, though the driver escaped with minor injuries. Subsequent testing found that the spindle to the steam cock was slightly bent, causing it to bind when being opened, and it is thought that the crew opened the valve to what they thought was fully open, but in fact it was still partly closed. Following that accident, drivers and firemen at every shed that had an allocation of such locos were given practical instructions on how to use the controls, and the plate that previously read "This valve to be open" was changed to read "This valve to be full open".

The next accident occurred to locomotive 2363 at Thurston (LNER, near Bury St Edmunds) on 12 January 1944. Again, the crown sheet collapsed. the fireman was blown from the footplate and suffered burns and bruises but survived. The driver suffered a broken leg from the firehole door, which was blown from its hinges, but he also survived. Subsequent testing found the steam valve was so stiff as to need both hands to fully open it, and the driver was considered to be at fault for not ensuring the valve was fully open.

The final accident was slightly different. It occurred in South Harrow Tunnel on the former GCR mainline in north London on 30 August 1944. The locomotive concerned was 1707, and the explosion resulted in the deaths of both crew. Subsequent analysis found that the steam shut off valve was fully open and the gauge was in good order. It seems that the crew simply misread the water level, believing it to be higher than it was.

Tom

 

Theres a lot of reasons on both sides and despite my becoming renown for supporting North Eastern heritage and other followers of standardisation, such as the Western region, Staniers kit too, Im more pragmatic really. The plus points for the S160 are that it would be cheaper to overhaul than others of similar power by comparrison, but probably not given its current condition and that it would need an extensive overhaul compared with one engine that has been taken out of service and given tlc when in traffic. Owning it too helps, but its real plus poits are the way in which it would be easier to maintain, easier to operate, and kinder to the track and p-way. The downsides are that in the north proper, they were rarer than hens teeth, the immediate overhaul would be expensive and protracted as well as its limited ability to work the full line to Whitby. Even if they were shedded at Leeds the idea of one at Whitby is as ludicrous as Repton and the S15 turning up.

Im not saying things dont change. Black 5s were rare too, but as preservation has developed the type is now synominous with the NYMR and in ways they have become adopted North Eastern kit. Railways continue to evolve and adapt, the NYMR has a fleet of engines that do work and work well. Yes the bank makes them work, but it helps when crews dont thrash everything up the hill instead of just taking their time. Saying you need more than a type 4 or 5 is an overstatement. Many engines are capable of working the line and working it well when coaxed and not forced.

The NYMR has many projects on the go at the moment, with engines in for overhaul and some on its books that it wonders what to do with. Cash and funds need to be diverted to where they would be best used. Im sure many would like the flavour of the Eastern region to be retained at one of the best preserved lines in the country, but fate dealt a hand that was harsh and Eastern engines are few and far between. With a roster of the B1, A4 and Q6, the line does well and with some standards and Black 5s the feel of the line is nice and well suited. However, pragmatism should win the day and with other engines to hand its no surprise some kit from elsewhere is brought in, although Id like those Western tanks back before Repton or the S15. Of those engines the NYMR has long term out of traffic, my choice would be to see WD Dame Vera Lynn return over the S160.

But... diversity if the spice of life and thats certainly true in our hobby!

 

Err, actually I think there may be documented evidence of at least one S160 at Pickering on a tank-transporting train during the war, which is more than can be said for any of the WD2-10-0s! Clearly you are not from the NYMR operating staff (as, to be fair I'm not, either) - I think you would be pushed to find anyone Grosmont Shed who would prefer a GW tank to any of the Southern engines on the line!

 

Are there any GW tanks left on the NYMR? 5224 is at Crewe, awaiting overhaul and 6619 has begun a new life on the Kent & East Sussex. I can't remember any others, although I'm open to correction.

 

No, that's the lot. The only GWR engine on the Moors now is 3814. As to the S160, I suspect that the big problem will be Whitby running. The NYMR is presumably keen to prioritise the overhaul of engines which can work through to Whitby and, while 2253 would doubtless be able to cope with the curves ("Evening Star" after all managed it even before the curves were eased) unless 5820's couple of visits to the Shipley Triangle in the late '70s are taken into account it would be the first member of the class to operate on the main line since the War, and that would mean that an awful lot of hoops would have to be jumped through in order to get it certified.

 

Not only that, but as a lot of it is halfway up a hillside and shaded by trees, it is frequently a bit on the moist side.