Replica 'Lincoln Castle'

Because, Stan, the question then would have to be "Usable bits for what?" My heart would have loved to have seen "LINCOLN CASTLE" up and running, but my head says something very different - see my reply below. I mentioned PS RYDE - here is an example of what can happen when "heart" rules "head". That ship has been the subject of more preservation attempts than I've had hot dinners! None were successful and the latest in the saga is that she is too far gone to even move for scrapping! I saw the documentary which showed Marine Surveyors looking to see if the ship could be moved from her current berth for scrapping, and the comments from the inspector were fairly caustic to say the least - you could see the tide marks INSIDE the ship where the sea level rose at full tide! Needless to say, the MCA inspector said the ship was going nowhere! Yes, it is sad to see these ships go for scrap, but as a sailor myself, I do feel that a "quick death" is far preferable than to see them rot away like RYDE.

Had the machinery been saved, what on earth could have been done with it? Probably gone into "storage" and deteriorated to the point of being unusable would be my guess.

Ship preservation is more expensive than any other form of heritage preservation, and that probably includes Aviation - even the Vulcan cost less to do up than is being spent on "MEDWAY QUEEN" for example. We should be very grateful for the few operating ships we have and support them fully. Adding more working ships only dilutes the market and puts those operating ships into possible financial danger.

 

True, but iirc, even then, and after stripping it down, the entablature would still have been in excess of the SWL of the available crane?

Are the engines in the surviving sister ships still extant?

Mark

 

The point I am making is they were not accidentally dropped when they "tried" to remove them. They were destroyed.

Odd how Copes ensured they were screened away from view when they were wrecked. Make no mistake there was no intention of ever saving the engines... Johnsons put paid to that.

There was absolutely no need for the barbaric way Linclon Castle was destroyed, You are obviously unaware that people did want the engines and were happy to part with cash for them and indeed a good home had been found for them.

Stan

 

I don't always agree with Stan - far from it.

The truth is that we in the PSPS had to decline the ship as we had neither the financial resources to take on the job, or be legally comfortable with our other obligations were we to take the LC on. It was our duty as responsible charity trustees to take the prudent - if difficult decision.

At that time the nascent LCPS came into being and the PSPS stood shoulder to shoulder with them, in person, and in fact, to lend such assistance as we could; and the LCPS raised sufficient funds to take over the ship as she stood, so far as N E Lincs Council's bond requirements were concerned - even if all they could have done at that point were to mothball her.

The Johnsons could have separated themselves from further financial responsiblity for the ship, and walked away with a sale price; and as the LC was sitting on an underwater rubble plinth and she could not sink further, the LCPS could have had breathing space before moving forward with any scheme, but instead of talking to the would be owners, the Johnson family cut off all communication, declared the preservation scheme "too late" and commissioned the vessel's destruction by Copes demolition contractors.

Even then the view was taken that as the engines had been lovingly cared for, and were still capable of being turned over, that they should be removed and conserved,as has been done with other paddle steamer engines - Caledonia for instance, and the price that had been suggested -and more - was offered to the Johnsons to save them intact.

The response from the owners and their contractors was despicable, disgraceful and beyond contempt, and Johnsons and Copes should be vilified for the rest of their miserable lives for it. The ship was hidden behind a steel screen and the engines were deliberately destroyed by being sledgehammered by the hydraulic arm of the nibbler until they were a smashed and twisted wreck completely beyond salvage.

In another world this would be called criminal damage and vandalism. In my world it is the behaviour of scum who belong in the gutter and have no place in civilised company. I hope they are happy with their thirty pieces of silver.

This was nothing to do with the cost or difficulty of preservation. Some other factor was at work. One day the truth will out and I hope it chokes the guilty parties when it emerges

 

Sorry, Stan, but I was aware that people did want the engines - the point I was making was that these are heavy bits of kit, and again costs came into it. I'm a Marine Engineer by profession, and understand the importance of preserving old machinery, (hence my question as to the continued existence of the engines of the sister ships), but ultimately, rightly or wrongly, the owner made a decision to do as he wanted with his own property.

As Frank says, there was likely another factor in play too, & yes, the truth will hopefully come out in time.

 

Once again Frank, well said.

I agree with your comments entirely and hope those guilty get what they deserve.

Stan

 

Just one point - why should Copes be vilified; after all, they were under contract to the Owners to do a job. 'He who pays the piper' & all that...

Just saying...

Mark

 

At the risk of upsetting people, and, i must stress, with no real life case in mind, but perhaps the tragedy of Lincoln Castle should act as a reminder that any private owner can do what they like with their property unless legislation exists to prevent them - like listing building status (which isn no perfect protection). In other words, the owner of a steam loco could, if they wished, have a machine scrapped.

Steven

 

Exactly, Steven. Indeed, wasn't this discussed in one of the magazines not so long ago?

Mark

 

But why would anyone utterly and wantonly destroy something for which people were offering good money intact ??

Scrap merchants sold the Barry collection as largely intact machinery for better prices than recovered scrap. Preservation would be a different world if Woodhams had been lesser businessmen. Many vehicles and exhibits are only around today because honourable people were prepared to sell, and not destroy.

"Because I can" is not, and never can be, justification for what was done, which was simply spiteful destruction calculated to cause maximum offence, in which it has manifestly succeeded.

Any poster who suggests that what was done was justifiable because of stewardship through ownership needs to examine their priorities and presence on this forum. Even that old witch Thatcher admitted that we are only temporay stewards of that which we control.

 

Once again Frank is bang on.

Stan

 

So what you're saying is that EVERYTHING should be kept 'in perpetuity', are you, Frank? Sorry, but the real world isn't like that, as well you know. You don't have to look too far to see examples of 'official vandalism' either - the old Broad Gauge engines at Swindon at the end of the 19th Century, then the Diesels there in the 80s. The destruction of the old Midland relics at Derby, ordered by no less a person than Stanier himself, in the early 30s. The Great Hall at the old Euston, plus the Doric Arch. The list goes on. Indeed, look at the case of the Class 502 unit - preserved for the nation, then 'deselected'. Why? Lack of storage space for one thing. (Well done to the group that took it on, by the way).

I regret as much as anyone the destruction of Lincoln Castle, but at least she had sisters which are still extant.

It's happened, but there is no point lashing out about it now; more appropriate is to ensure that efforts to avoid similar things are heightened. Nobody here, I'm sure, knows the full story of what went on; it appears that the owner had simply had enough of being 'told' what to do by others. Had there been a Preservation Order on the vessel then things would perhaps have been different, but there wasn't.

PS Ryde and SS Manxman are also likely to be doomed, sadly, but as many have commented, ships cost a lot more to look after than trains, road locomotives, even jet aircraft like the Vulcan. Fact of life.

 

Oh do grow up will you, the use of idiot logic of that calibre is simply not tenable. No-one is advocating keeping everything, and YOU well know it.

The demolitions you allude to are now recognised as disgraceful in all quarters; but in this instance, you utterly fail to recognise the fact that, in the 21st Century, for what was clearly a heritage aretefact, there were real buyers with available resources, ready to take the ship off her previous owners and end their ongoing liability. That was surely what they wished to achieve - an end to potential outlay. They did NOT have to destroy her, or do it in the manner they did to achieve that.

There may be no point in lashing on now, I will agree with you on that, but there is equally no merit in being an apologist for philistines of this calibre who destroyed a local historic item just because they could, and would not give local preservationists a chance. You may be happy to walk away on the other side of the road, some of us are of stronger stuff - thank goodness!

Ryde is doomed - The tides go in and out of her, she is a total basket case marooned in a salt marsh and would cost millions to decontaminate, excavate a way in for a pontoon, lift and double plate before she could even be recovered. Its over

The Manxman - what can you say?? She is undercover in drydock. She is not deteriorating, but as there is NO mechanism to "list"ships as can be done for buildings, she is at ultimate risk. If Peel Holdings had any imagination they could visualise her as a tremendous centrepiece in Wirral Waters with her classic lines, as a hotel, conference centre, and dining experience. Even better would be for her to be re-engined with modern technology, with a sectioned turbine to show her heritage, and get her back in her element a la Hebridean Princess.

The problem is that I am a glass half full type, not a member of the bean counter "TalkyourselfdownUK" Plc type that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

I have to agree with you again Frank.

Stan

 

I was not in any defending what has happened - merely stating that it is a danger for any "artifact". I am pretty sure that the owners of PS Lincoln Castle could have realised more from a sale for preservation than they would get for scrap (there would be a cost in breaking the ship up), but that is still the route they took.

Mark - I think you are right about a recent discussion but I think it may have been on here - the term "Viking funeral" was used and that is exactly the sort of thing I mean. Sense would say that a buyer can be found, that resale yields more, but when was this world "sensible"!?!

(BTW Frank - don't disagree with anything you say - and frequently use the "price/value" quote myself - so In hope I am not the type of bean-counter who is guilty of not being able to look beyond £1 notes. That said, sometimes, true dilemas arise as to whether the cost of one thing risks the value of something greater).

Steven

 

I think that this is all very emotive, as seen by the way that some of the comments have been worded... It shouldn't have happened, but it has. Ultimately, yes, it would be great to keep as many historical artifacts as possible, but it's a little simplistic to parrot the 'price of everything - value of nothing' line too, particularly in this age of austerity that we seem to have found ourselves in .

There are always factors that we, the great British Public, may not be aware of at the time that things happen either - it could be that an owner needs cash 'right now', hence a quick sale, regardless of outcome, happens. Or there may be personal issues. Or, pressure may be brought to bear by the owner of the land/quayside that the artifact is occupying to free it up. There are others too, as well we know. It's not always as black and white as it may first appear.

Also, as we've already agreed, it is HORRENDOUSLY expensive to maintain old ships; far more than trams, railways, road engines etc. It's the nature of the beast. It's been said that ships would last for ever if the owners didn't insist on launching them and recouping the building costs. Well, that's not 100% true, but if a good paint system was applied & maintained intact (even that costs time and money) it's not too far off the truth...

Thinking of ships under cover, have you seen 'Turbinia' recently? Her hull is slowly rotting away, despite being in a dry building away from corrosive sea air, unlike poor old Manxman. Yes, she's under cover too, but the air at Pallion is still salt-laden...

No-one could be more concerned at the loss of our heritage than myself, particularly (other than railways ) the maritime sector, but it's reality time, I'm afraid. Big and expensive; even a little paddler like the late, lamented 'Lincoln Castle'. I'd love to see the 'City of Adelaide' restored, but I honestly can't see that happening either. Look at 'Cutty Sark' - it's costing millions to (rightly) restore her again, (and thank goodness she was insured), but I cannot see a similar job happening again any time soon.

Look at the museum ships already in existence - they are always looking for funding. I understand that the masts on HMS Belfast have been repaired/replaced recently, but only because of the generosity of the Russian government, as a 'thank you' for the ship's service in WW2 which assisted the USSR. The ships in Birkenhead - under threat. HMS Cavalier - she was lucky to survive.

We can argue the rights & wrongs of Lincoln Castle's demise ad infinitum, but the fact remains that she was privately owned and her fate rested purely with her owners. As has been said, there's no National Register, but again, who would pay for it all? I cannot see Joe Public cheering on the saving of a few old ships at horrendous cost to the taxpayer, when they can see public services being pruned back hard. That, sadly, is the cold reality of today's world.

 

Here's a picture of the 'Tattershall Castle' in London :

http://ronfisher2.fotopic.net/p64676752.html

 

Now in a horrible external colour scheme. I used to spend quite a bit of time on the ship astern of her, the Hispaniola, when it was an active vessel on the Clyde as Maid of Ashton.

 

I can't remember the Ashton in service - I'm not that old eep: