If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Project Wareham

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by David R, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,496
    Likes Received:
    23,735
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Mine are in their teens now, but my experience when they were small was more akin to @Jamessquared than yours; our day would be planned around a likely departure rather than to a specific arrival. However, much also depended (and still does!) on my wife - she is an early starter, whereas I prefer the more leisurely approach.

    Scale that to likely patterns of demand, and include other data, and I suspect the demand for early starts will be quite limited. Especially, if operations are constrained to a single shift, starting earlier would also compel an earlier finish.
     
    Cuckoo Line likes this.
  2. 5914

    5914 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    520
    It raises a smile to look at the recent messages which tend to demonstrate a confirmation bias that the individual experience of an individual commentator is typical.

    The empirical evidence of historic train loadings is that people tend towards trains arriving in Swanage between 11am and 12/12 30pm, and that trains before this time and afterwards are more lightly loaded. (Although, I have to admit this may have changed drastically in the last couple of years, but recent visits do not suggest so in my own experience) Whilst this is evidence on the basis of people arriving at Norden by car, it is also verified by observed evidence of car parking - which rarely begins to fill before 10/10 30am. Added into that the fact that many travelling by train may well not wish to travel on peak fares, and there are a range of factors that indicate that early arrivals into Swanage may not be hugely popular. The risk is having an earlier arrival but missing that key travel window that could result in lower loadings.

    As an aside, when an earlier arrival from Norden to Swanage (arriving just before 10am) was trialed in the early 2000s it was difficult to encourage even meagre loadings despite having a hugely discounted 'early-bird' fare. People just did not end up arriving in Purbeck before mid/late-morning.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
    35B, Jamessquared and Gladiator 5076 like this.
  3. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I dont dispute any of this but the issue under discussion, imho, is what is the optimum service pattern / time of arrival of a train into Swanage from Wareham. Given the constraints imposed by rolling stock / crew availability / duty hours / mainline connections etc etc.

    Whilst those of us posting on this forum have our own views, subject to the confirmation bias indicated by @5914 , it was my understanding that one of the objectives of the trail service was to get some idea of demand for the service from actual loadings.

    I question whether a first service arriving in Swanage from Wareham C12:00 is providing a good enough test of demand.

    I think a better test, if this can be done within the aforementioned constraints, would be of an arrival at C11:00 and C12:00 even though this means that the service is actually a Wareham <> Corfe Castle service connecting as best as possible with a Corfe Castle <> Swanage service.

    My purely anecdotal view is that the peak of arrivals at Swanage occurs within the 10:30 - 11:30 time range.

    If Dorset Council and Swanage Town Council are genuinely serious about reducing traffic congestion they would use the data and means at their disposal to provide guidance to make informed judgements and take appropriate actions.

    My personal view is that DC and STC are conflicted and thus not able to carry out the actions required to reduce traffic congestion and improve public transport.
     
  4. 5914

    5914 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    520
    I agree that it would be good to have a more frequent service for trial purposes, but with only one unit and the requirement to fit in with a 40 minute interval service it would prove almost impossible to timetable the interaction of an hourly CC-W service with the 40 minute cycle of N-S services. This is primarily because the CC-W service could not return to Wareham until the steam service had gone CC-N and back. Without recasting one timetable or other (i.e. moving one by 20 minutes either way) then the next service that could make the relevant paths between Worgret and Wareham could only be two hours earlier than presently planned, rather than an hour earlier.

    (Assuming that the mainline timetable is not going to change, then the only other option is to shirt all SR services by 10 minutes and retime the whole S-W an hour earlier)
     
  5. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thank you for that detailed explanation.

    It is a bit frustrating that the implications of the two service patterns have been "known about" within the railway and not communicated to a broader audience.
     
  6. 5914

    5914 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    520
    They were publicly outlined when the SR timetable changed to a 40 minute cycle (in either 2005 or 2006), and were included in briefings around the pre-launch of the project in 2008/9. I also seem to remember something regarding the frequencies being commented on at a PR event when the 2017 trial took place.

    However, they are not secret, and are a logical outflow of having cycles that operate at two different frequencies - they can only interact at the frequency by which the cycles coincide. (The basic maths is that, in this case, the governing frequency is that with a 40 minute cycle the SR timetable repeats every 40, 80 and 120 minutes, whilst the mainline repeats every 60 and 120 minutes - therefore they will only coincide every 120 minutes). The frequencies on the mainline are dictated by the service pattern as longer distance trains interact with the SW suburban network, whilst frequencies on the Swanage branch are governed by the single-line sections - which enforce a rigidity to them that would not be so acute on a double track line.
     
    Sunnieboy likes this.
  7. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I am not questioning the logic. Without wishing to get into a prolonged debate - because as is often said we are where we are - the green timetable on the website is for want of a better description "lumpy". SRC used to attribute its success in passenger carryings (over 200,000 for many years in a row) to its high frequency and regular service and one has to wonder whether the Wareham service will actually have a detrimental effect on the appeal of the steam service to the point that overall carryings are less. Time will tell.
     
    twr12 likes this.
  8. Tom02

    Tom02 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2022
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    21
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Christchurch
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Longer term, two Swanage railway sets could provide an hour frequency between Swanage to Wareham. Then every service would be able to connect. Tho that is much much longer term , and whether we will ever see that is another thing. Maybe one day we will an every hour, 6-car steam service to Wareham. I'll dream
     
  9. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well it may be a dream but it does highlight that the 2023 operation is in reality two operations that both complement and rub against each other. Surely the goal has to be effectively a single service offering steam and diesel to meet the needs and demands of the customer. Whilst running steam to Wareham may not be viable or practical then focus has to be put on eliminating those bottle necks to allow at least a more even headway. I genuinely wonder how many prospective passengers are going to turn up at Norden / Purbeck Park find that the next service is quite a wait and decide to travel into Swanage by car instead.
     
    desperado likes this.
  10. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,078
    Likes Received:
    4,893
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The steam part of the green timetable has Norden departures at the same time as the blue timetable, so the gaps will actually be less than a non Wareham day due to DMU operations, and you end up with a later steam service back to Norden on green as well.
    How many having driven, especially on non school holiday days would park at Wareham rather than Norden remains to be seen, surely the aim is to get them to arrive on SWR.
     
  11. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well yes but it depends on what you are comparing it with. A few years back blue (low season) was steam every 80 mins, green (shoulder season) was every 40 mins steam and dmu alternating, yellow (peak season) was every 40 minutes all steam.

    Some of the "new green" is on the same days as the "old green" but the service is "lumpy" as it includes Wareham. I appreciate the causes of that but I just have concerns that lumpy timetables may put off some traffic.

    Perhaps we should all stop discussing Wareham until it is running as until that happens there are no outcomes to discuss. Hopefully SRC will release passenger numbers because IMHO there is a great deal of interest in Project Wareham and it would be good to discuss factual information and not supposition or conjecture.
     
  12. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,501
    Likes Received:
    2,370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    72B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    What has to be remembered with this new trial is that it is a bold statement from the railway of their intended long term intentions at a time when other lines such as the SVR, MHR and Bluebell have made difficult operational decisions both for the immediate running days and long term overhaul of locomotives to protect themselves form the cost of living crisis. They are under an obligation to complete this trial even though the world as we know it has changed immensely since not only when the early preservation pioneers got access to the line but when the reconnection was made to the network. What they have offered as a trial covers the obligation without impacting too heavily on volunteer resources and the daily bread and butter of the steam railway operations.
     
  13. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    We hope the Swanage Railway will do well in 2023 to recover from the pandemic and fuel economic crisis.
    Hopefully extra passengers will come from the restored SWR mainline connection to the steam railway.
    SWR also need to boost leisure use and less reliance on car use.
    But also going back to 1885, the new branch line in the days of horse carriages gave Purbeck residents and farmers cost effective means of getting to markets at Dorchester, Bournemouth and sometimes a trip to London.

    Now part of the objective is to reduce road congestion and from the press release.
    "The trial service holds the prospect of Isle of Purbeck residents travelling anywhere possible by rail, leaving their cars at home and taking traffic off the congested A351 road," added Mike who is a Swanage Railway Trust trustee and Swanage town councillor.".
    The return of the 563 locomotive this summer will also be a reminder of Victorian and Edwardian times and bring extra visitors to Swanage and Corfe, hopefully via the Wareham SWR connection, which hopefully be repeated again in 2024 and beyond.?
    For some to use a train (or bus) rather than a car for lesuire use will be hard, but worth SR and SWR promoting it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2023
  14. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,849
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/writer and composer of classical music
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm sure that no one, even the strongest sceptics about the viability of the Wareham trains, wishes the service to be anything other than a success.

    I travelled all the way from East Sussex to Swanage by rail in 2017 and I must say, it made a very pleasant change from coping with the traffic on the A27, M27 and A31. Although a DMU doesn't excite me as much as 2017's combination of a 33 and a 37 (let alone steam), the prospect of seeing the T3 in steam is very appealing and if it's up and running in August, when road traffic will be at its peak, then I for one may well consider going by train, including using the Wareham DMU to see it rather than driving all the way.
     
  15. Tom02

    Tom02 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2022
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    21
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Christchurch
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Recent email stating the £100 year pass now includes wareham!!!!, I'm hoping and expecting the current active year ones (same price) also do. I did receive a direct message few days stating I would get 33% off Wareham services but hopefully they have re-looked into this
     
  16. Kingscross

    Kingscross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    484
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South West
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The timings look pretty spot on to me. My mother lives near Brockenhurst - a 1005 train from there gets to Wareham 1048, Swanage train arrives 1109 and departs 10 mins later. Five hours in Corfe or 4 and a half in Swanage, then pick up a train which arrives at Wareham at 1710. 1730 Main line train to Brock, arrive 1810, and home for tea! Those timings look pretty ideal for a family day out, particularly from Southampton/Totton/New Forest/the BCP Conurbation.
     
  17. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes and I think realistically that is the area of low hanging fruit that SRC and SWR need to attract.
     
    Andy Moody, Kingscross and Sunnieboy like this.
  18. Daddsie71b

    Daddsie71b Member Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    770
    Likes Received:
    638
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    34091
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In a weeks time the first Wareham train using Swanage Railway stock will have arrived at Swanage.

    Hopefully.
     
  19. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2019
    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    1,223
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brighton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yet still no sign of the trains or promised through ticketing options on national rail / SWR websites?
     
    Daddsie71b and alastair like this.
  20. Tom02

    Tom02 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2022
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    21
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Christchurch
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I wonder if they will at least do a test run of the stock on the mainline??
     

Share This Page