North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

From 2013, Northern will be running a longer summer Sunday service - basically for a very similar period to the NYMR daily service. It will be to different times and hence will permit NYMR services to run to Whitby on Sundays to an amended timetable.

The train provision on a Sunday has very much followed the reduction in patronage. The trend goes back several years. A major factor seems to be people starting later in the day on a Sunday, and also Sunday being a shopping day now when the whole family can go out to "enjoy" a trip to the local retail park.

I treied it once and can't see the attraction but others do!

Getting back to the NYMR, Sunday takings would not much more than cover the cost of operation of an 8 train timetable, so 6 across the main part of the day has what has been put together and takings would struggle to justify this if all steam.

The diesel out during the Spring/Jubilee Bank Holiday week was planned on first and last and ran during the day due to late non-availability of a 2nd Whitby engine, which would have meant steaming a 5th steam loco for 1 round trip, for which the coal cost of steaming would be approaching the coal used whilst on the move.

Steven

 

Interesting to note that the SVR likewise has a generally less frequent service on Sundays (when there is no special event). Timetable C on Saturdays, Nine trains each way, vice Sunday, timetable B, seven each way including the diner.
Timetable C does however have a diesel diagram, whereas the Sunday one does not.....well "hopefully" so !

 

The Late, great John Leech, SVR Marketing Manager, always said their main competitor was the local Shopping Centre. This has clearly reflected in visitor numbers and timetable the same in the Midlands as here in North Yorkshire.

Steven

 

Below is last week's NYMR steam status list. What is the likelihood of getting 45428, 60007 and 63395 back for the 'gold' timetable? And when will steam to Whitby return?

Steam Locomotives
In Service

• 825 (expected 4th July)
• 75029 (expected 6th July)
• 80072
• 92214 (expected 3rd July)

Spare

• none

Repairs

• 825 Valve Gear linkages to repair
• 45428 Waiting new tyres Due in service July
• 60007 Middle valve gear to reassemble. Firebox stay repairs(4 off)
• 63395 Boiler repairs to continue
• 75029 Washout and 28 day exam from 30th June. Bogie wheelset to repair
• 92214 washout & 28 day exam (Expected 3rd July)

 

75029 expected back later thisweek I believe, and 61994 is supposed to be coming soon. 63395 apparently had a warming fire in it today so presumably not too far off. 825 is running again. As far as 45428 goes, wait and see! I personally doubt if it will be ready before August and I wouldn't be surprised if if doesn't make the main season at all. 60007 on the other hand should do, I think.

 

45428's retyred wheelsets arrived back from Rileys at Bury last week. The rear set was back under the loco by last Sunday with the other 2 sets in position next to the wheel drop to go in this week. August or even late July looking hopeful!

Steven

 

So what's the likely steam roster for early next week? Bringing the other half up for a few days and she will be most put out if she doesn't get a steam hauled trip to Whitby on the Monday.

 

75029 undertook a test run to Goathland this afternoon and is planned to be back in traffic tomorrow, so should be on the Grosmont to Whitby section from then all, all being well.

Website is listing 13th, Q6 12th and 80072 back off wash-out on 14th - so could be steam as per timetable by next week.

Steven

 

Fingers crossed then. Haven't had 75029 out of Whitby so that will be a bonus. Would be happy with the Deltic on the Moors section but the other half will only tolerate trips to heritage railways if she gets steam.

 

Latest news items;

55022 Royal Scots Grey runs on Sundays throughout August and September | North Yorkshire Moors Railway :: A steam train adventure through the stunning Yorkshire Moors

Sir Nigel Gresley not running today | North Yorkshire Moors Railway :: A steam train adventure through the stunning Yorkshire Moors

Class 37 37264 running tomorrow | North Yorkshire Moors Railway :: A steam train adventure through the stunning Yorkshire Moors

Diesel Gala | North Yorkshire Moors Railway :: A steam train adventure through the stunning Yorkshire Moors

Autumn Steam Gala | North Yorkshire Moors Railway :: A steam train adventure through the stunning Yorkshire Moors

 

Thanks Andrew. How quickly you lose track of what is happening on a particular railway. For me, the NYMR has gone below the radar since their unofficial forum went members only.

Andrew, has the rebirth of NYMR TV not taken off, appears to have been just that one episode in April?

 

Had a very nice trip on NYMR last weekend. I did enjoy the section from Whitby to Grosmont, that few milles an hour faster that is allowed is just enough to get the metals singing.
Am guessing that the Standard 4 was the only loco in steam cleared for this section as much swapping of engines and trains occurred, and due to the contraints of the timetable we had to change at levisham or spend all afternoon in Pickering.

Tell me, if a train is being run on NR at 35-45 MPH, whats to stop that same train running at this slightly faster speed along the whole line, it might just make it possible to do the full line return incl whitby in a couple of hours.
Maybe the line could get away with three or even two trains running instead of 4 on Less busy days and still run a reasonably frequent service.....

 

The NYMR Safety Case and the fact that a number of derogations from mainline standards rely upon a limit of 25mph.

It is technically not impossible to raise the speed limit, but is very difficult and would be very costly. A whole raft of issues from crew training standards to rolling stock inspection via permanent way standards would have to be looked at and potentially changed.

It is all about the perception of risk. It is percieved by the authorities that running at 25mph or less the consequences of an accident or incident are less severe. Of course there is likely to be little in it between 25mph and 30 or 35 mph, but there would be at 45mph, and they have to draw the line somewhere.

 

I believe many railways were only ever 25mph max, and operated under a Light Railway Order. Not sure if NYMR was one such line. Certainly rural branches often were, but I guess NYMR was a connecting line.

 

The NYMR, like the majority of heritage railways, did run under an original LRO and there was a line limit of 25mph as a condition of that. As 21B also states, newer legislation provides for a cut-off at 40kmph (25mph) above which the paperwork and conditions become more rigorous. However, as the Railway operates on the Esk Vally line, it has to comply with the higher standards, in any case so it wouldn't be a sea change to extend this to the whole line.
Having said that, Class8mikado's perception of the extra speed on the run to Whitby is a bit off the mark. the line speed to Whitby is only 30mph and many trains are limited to 25mph in any case because of conditions imposed on the use of slam door stock, so there is little difference between running on the NYMR and runnnig to Whitby. It is only on the line to Battersby that 45mph running is permitted. t orun at more than 25mph, you have to provide door stewards.
As to whether higher speeds on the NYMR would be beneficial, it has to be remembered that the Whitby-Pickering railway was an early railway and originally laid out for horse traction. It thus had many sharp curves which still exist to this day and these are the reasons for the whole line generally having a 30mph limit in BR days and which would probably remain the limit even if higher speeds were to be considered.
To answer the question of engine swaps at Grosmont, yes 75029 was the only operational Whitby loco this weekend. 45428 was undergoing repairs but should be back in service tomorrow. Engine swaps are the norm if only one Whitby loco is available and the timetable allows for this.

 

The original railway was not a light railway under the Light Railways Act as it pre-dated this Act by many years but a Light Railway Order was applied for and given when it was first preserved.

 

Dont expect anyone to admit it, am not pointing fingers and of course speed control on a steam loco which is able to toy with its train is a bit of a 'hunt sometimes.... but definitely felt more like 30 at one point......
Is it not the case that the 25mph light railway order limit is a point to point average in any case ? (titfield thunderbolt !!!) Anyway its just a thought as many of our heritage lines continue to extend there comes a point where 3 hours for a return journey whilst presenting real value for the ticket price might be a little long for joe public...

 

If you're not pointing fingers, please don't mention it. Authorities do read these forums (I know that for a fact before anyone jumps down my throat) and this kind of suggestion is not helpful. If you have a concern that there was a safety issue as a result of what you witnessed you should make contact with the Office of Rail Regulation directly.

As far as I know the 25mph limit was always an absolute limit not an average. The original act of parliament is the 1896 Light Railways Act and that established various constraints on the railways in return for accepting lower standards of various sorts including the removal of the need to get a specific act of parliament to build the line. I think that TEB Clarke was using scriptwriter's licence to explain how they got away with some fairly outrageous operating standards. My favourite film and a wonderful window on a point in time (the 1950s).

As regards ticket price / journey distance. It seems to me that the most popular railways in terms of ridership tend to be the longer ones these days, and that people expect to be "entertained" for longer than used to be the case. There is an expectation that has been growing for many years of a "day out". 5 miles used to be reckoned to be the perfect length in the '80s but today it is probably 12 to 15 in terms of giving a long enough ride without excessive cost. The problem is that the longer you get the lower your earnings per mile can be since there is a resistance to very high ticket prices.

 

No, absolutely not. It is the maximum permitted speed. If a train is running late the crew must not exceed that speed in order to regain time. Similarly, you can drive a car at 20 mph in a 30 limit but you are not then allowed to drive an equivalent distance at 40 mph to get a 30 average, are you?

 

The 25mph limit was little more than an informed hunch in the 1896 Act and it has survived pretty well without challenge in LROs and TWA Orders since then, whilst everything in life has got faster. The GCR has a 25mph limit for passenger trains but does testing at 60mph, whilst the SVR has tested at 50mph. The West Somerset LRO has a 40mph limit for DMUs and I think that, for our principal heritage railways, standards to permit that speed could be demonstrated as acceptable in terms of risk assessment. After all, Mark 1s were running at 100mph a few years ago.

I felt sure that the North Yorkshire Moors line limit was 45mph when part of the national system. I dream of the day when it can be reconnected at Rillington Junction and, if that happens, 25mph throughout will just not be viable.