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New Loco for IoM Railways?

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by lostlogin, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. Tynwald

    Tynwald New Member

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    Lack of spares - DRS's locos continue to ply their trade as theres quite a supply of 20/37 bits about. It's a tad different for Viking.

    The Fox-Walkers were put up for sale by CIE after withdrawl in 1961 (after all of 7 years of service). however they were unreliable and wouldn't have fitted the manx loading gauge without major surgery - however the IMR did make an offer which was rejected by CIE at the time so surgery could have happened. It's a shame really as a 448hp diesel with 25mph capability would solve the problem here...
     
  2. kscanes

    kscanes Part of the furniture

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    In the pedantic interests of accuracy .... the builder of the West Clare locos, and most of the Irish railcars, was Walker Brothers (of Wigan), not Fox Walker (of Bristol). Completely different Company.
     
  3. Tynwald

    Tynwald New Member

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    Aware of that - but I seem to remember them being referred to as Fox-Walkers.
     
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Is production of new parts to replace whats knackered not an option ? genuinely interested as with steam loco's if a part was life expired you'd have a new one manufactured.
     
  5. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Looks like Schoma do a pretty comprehensive spares and support service (is the actual prime mover a Deutz engine?) From the sound of things it seems that someone at the IOMR just wants to design and build a loco rather than going for something commercially available, possibly for the fun of it?
     
  6. msharp

    msharp New Member

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    Are the IoM requirements so different form the FR/WHR ones? If they are close enough wouldn't it make sense for the two lines to team up so that rather than build two designs they can get a batch built. Save the IoM's 50k design money at least. If building new the gauge difference shouldn't be a problem, especially if a bogie design.

    Apologies if this has already been suggested or is a silly idea.
     
  7. kscanes

    kscanes Part of the furniture

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    IMHO practicalities do not come into the equation. As has been said, the old loco could probably be adequately repaired, given the will. Or a new one built for rather less than three quarters of a million quid. Or even another second hand loco bought, overhauled, re-gauged and adapted.

    No, I see this as a vanity protect. Quite common for certain types of administrator with access to "public" funding. Because I assume that this new loco is to be funded from the bottomless public purse (I can't see the railway having enough money to fund it, but please correct me if I'm wrong).
     
  8. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Put much better than I did! :)
     
  9. kscanes

    kscanes Part of the furniture

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    I'm torn in several directions on this topic. As a railway enthusiast I'm in favour of pretty much any new locos being built. The possibility that a UK company could be involved appeals to my patriotism. But the use of taxpayers' money to fund an unnecessarily expensive solution (and I admit I am making several assumptions here) gets my back up ..... however, since (as far as I know) my tax money doesn't end up in the Isle of Man, my back is only going up in solidarity with the Isle of Man taxpayers rather than my more usual view of vanity projects which is to think, "I'm paying for that whether I like it or not".
     
  10. kscanes

    kscanes Part of the furniture

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  11. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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  12. steamdream

    steamdream Member

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    the 56' built in Romania some 30 years ago were excellent locomotives few mechanical problems and breakdowns a bit less than built in UKsure !!(no! I'm not a fan of the late Ceaucescu!!)
    regards
    Noel
     
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Pardon? They were delivered with all manner of problems caused by poor workmanship. To quote one article "After receipt of the order Electroputere commenced construction of their first loco (No. 56001 ) which was completed and shipped to England via the Zeebrugge-Harwich train ferry in August 1976. Over the following 12 months all 30 of the overseas build were delivered, but were not immediately put in service as many problems were identified. This caused many hundreds of hours' work for British depots and works, and the first Romanian locos finally entered service around the same time as the first British built examples." The BREL built batch - 56031 onwards - were much better build locos.
     
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  14. lynbarn

    lynbarn Member

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    I would also like to draw to your attention the Polish LXD2 Bo-Bo 450hp built locos, which are hardly used this day and age and so i am told could be had for a song, Have looked at them for conversion to 2ft but being a mechancal final drive, it was found to be almost impossible to do
     
  15. kscanes

    kscanes Part of the furniture

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    The news report I linked to said they were wanting to buy a Romanian L45H loco; googling pictures of L45H locos and googling pictures of LXD2 locos leads me to think that they are the same thing?

    What engine do these have? Given that one of the quoted reasons for VIKING being unsuitable is that they can't get spares for the engine, I wonder how wise it is to consider purchasing a loco that I suspect may be powered by a copy of an obsolete (German?) engine? (I could be wrong on that - open to correction).
     
  16. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

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    The article describes it as a "second-hand loco with a new engine and transmission" but does not specify what the new engine will be.
     
  17. Tu2

    Tu2 New Member

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    Lxd2 (Poland), MK45 (Hungary) and L45H (Roumania) are all the same. Built by Faur in Roumania.
    In Germany these machines are the favoured rescue locos on the Saxon narrow gauge lines. e.g.: http://i51.tinypic.com/2ikqdf8.jpg
    Even incl. a full refurbishment with new engine and transmission surely cheaper than a complete new design.
    Philipp
     
  18. houghtonga

    houghtonga Member

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    History was to repeat itself in mid wales; here is the list in no particular order of the rectification work that was required on the W&LLR's Resita locomotive AFTER its "heavy general" overhaul in Romania (incidently the CP2 bogies fitted to the Romanian class 56s were built by the Resita company as a sub contractor).

    After investigating a firebox leak it was discovered that the fusible plugs had been manufactured from white metal(?) rather than lead – replaced.

    Lubricator drive mechanism failed during Gala 2008 - replaced

    Locomotive was nose heavy and lop sided – issues with equalising wheel loads with axleboxes so tight within horn guides preventing wheels from touching the rails! Axleboxes dropped for attention.

    Heavy fuel and lubricating oil consumption – 26 buckets for a round trip compared to 17 for a Beyer Peacock. Coal consumption reduced by re-draughting. The oil consumption is due to lack of adjustment on the mechanical lubricators - plans exist to replaces these sometime.

    Unable to fully open regulator 'cos too stiff - longer regulator handle fitted. Did not really solve the problem.

    Injectors virtually useless at 200psi. Ran most of the 2007 season with only one reliable injector. Boiler pressure reduced for remainder of 2007 season. New injectors fitted winter 2007/8. Problem solved.

    Sokebox drafting very poor (we were expecting that). Lempore exhaust fitted winter 2007/8. Problem solved.

    Intermediate left hand crank observed to have moved laterally on the axle. Axle sent to Baguley for attention – crank moved at 25% of expected pressing off force. The axle’s crank and wheelseats showed evidence of picking up at a previous removal only leaving a proportion of the design contact area between crank bore and axle.

    Lots of knock in coupling rod bushes. Re-machined summer 2008.

    Broken axle during Gala 2008. The axles were found to have been built up with weld (a not uncommon practice in Romania as the RSSB has banned Romanian axles built by SMR from running on Network Rail for the same reason, but this practice is taboo in most other countries). New axles manufactured by Baguley and fitted 2009

    Piston valve events not correct. New piston valves manufactured winter 2008/9

    Eccentric rod found to be 15mm too long, re-manufactured.

    Regulator gland leaking badly. New regulator rod fitted & gland refurbished. Problem solved.

    Unable to fully open regulator 'cos too stiff. Regulator rebuilt winter 2009/10. Problem solved.

    20 boiler tubes tubes found to be cracked, leaking or both, boiler had to be re-tubed

    Firebox found to have developed a crack at foundation ring level – welded up be Israel Newton.

    Coupling rod failed in traffic, fatigue failure of an earlier weld repair at the breaking point. Replaced with spare from 764.423.

    Safety valve seating issues.

    Cylinders not parallel with each other or frame – cylinders remounted

    Cab floor discovered to be mounted on old window frame.

    Firebox stay failed at Gala 2010 a subsequent survey found several others as suspect. Locomotive not operated all 2011 and early part of the 2012 season as withdrawn to have its stays replaced (by Varley Boiler Services) along with other jobs (new ashpan and cab).

    Regards,
    Gareth
     
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  19. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Yeah, but apart from that, what was actually wrong with it?? :D
     
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  20. kscanes

    kscanes Part of the furniture

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    One thing that would be in my mind if I was considering spending a substantial sum on any engineering product (a loco in this case obviously), is, "What happens if it all goes pear-shaped? What happens if the loco is a total dog? What come-back do I have?) Whilst one would not want to go into a deal expecting it to go wrong, it would be wise to allow for it. Ultimately, unwillingly, we go to court. Suing a company in one's own country is ... well ... easy (probably not the right word?). Suing in a nearby European country is I expect not difficult (relatively), but going to court in Romania or wherever - I doubt if it is a practical proposition (just my knee-jerk reaction).

    So, whilst the product may be cheaper, sorry, less expensive, the risk is much greater.

    If I was convinced that a modified LxD2 was the answer to my problems, I think I'd ship it to the UK and have it rebuilt here. (Xenophobia or good sense?)
     

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