If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

New Loco for IoM Railways?

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by lostlogin, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. lostlogin

    lostlogin New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    46
    The Manx Budget contained an allowance of £750,000 for the building of a new diesel loco capable of rescuing a stranded train.

    Now when things like mobiles are being closed due to lack of funds this unsorprisngly has not gone down well!
    Budget 2012: £750,000 to spend on new railway engine - Isle of Man News - iomtoday

    The reason given for needing a new diesel is "because the existing diesels had passed their useful working life, spares were not readily available and they couldn’t be used to recover trains in the event of a breakdown"

    Now I would presume that most diesels on preserved railways, narrow gauge or otherwise, would have passed their intented working lives and spares may not be readily available but they are maintained and heavy reasonable use. However my questions are, is £750,000 a reasonable price to build a new diesel loco? They have already spent £50,000 on design fees!

    Secondly would it really be uneconomical to repair or overhaul the current loco as I would have thought even with a new engine, and tyres etc it would come in well under that? Anybody any experience or knowledge on such costs?
     
  2. AndrewT

    AndrewT New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Occupation:
    F&WHR Spin Doctor
    Location:
    Maentwrog
    Rebuilding an NG/G16 costs at least £500K and Lyd cost about the same when volunteer hours are factored in. £750K won't be far out when talking about building an entirely new design.
     
  3. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    644
    But your examples are steam, not diesel - and steam engines tend to be far more expensive.
     
  4. lostlogin

    lostlogin New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    46
    I also already had an idea of what a quote for a steam loco might be as there are plenty of fund raising appeals about which give a very good indication of the costs.
     
  5. kscanes

    kscanes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    My gut reaction is that £750,000 for a new diesel loco (of what power? 200bhp perhaps?) is very expensive, probably double what is required. I wonder if this is an exercise in asking for more than you want so that when it is cut down you get what you really need?

    I suspect they are right when they say there is not anything suitable on the second hand market. But a new diesel loco is not a complex beast: engine and transmission can come off the shelf from the construction industry (and that sorts out future spares supply problems). Again gut reaction, but I'd say a new diesel loco should cost very approximately the same as a piece of simple contractors plant (say a tractor shovel) of the same power.

    I wonder if the locos Bord na Mona build for themselves would be powerful enough? Possibly not which is a shame as they are a pretty well proven design.
     
  6. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    14,690
    Likes Received:
    4,951
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    What options are there for buying a new build loco these days? Alan Keef? There must be more!
     
  7. kscanes

    kscanes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    Hunslet, Hunslet Engine Company (recently built a standard gauge shunter, I'm sure they'd be delighted to build a narrow gauge one)
    Clayton, Clayton Equipment Ltd is one of the worlds premier suppliers of above and below ground locomotive haulage equipment.
    Schoma, SCHÖMA Christoph Schöttler Maschinenfabrik GmbH, Your Competent Partner for Locomotives and Railway Vehicles: Welcome
     
  8. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    14,690
    Likes Received:
    4,951
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thanks. So they all have standard designs available 'off the peg'. Wonder why the IOMR needed to spend £50K on design?
     
  9. kscanes

    kscanes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    It might not be true to say that they have suitable standard designs available off the peg - but they have designs in most power ranges that could be modified to suit. Most of the new-build narrow gauge market is for the tunneling and mining market. I doubt if it is difficult though to redesign the bodywork and create a cab with good visibility. I wonder if the £50K is for some consultant to write a specification? Alternatively, maybe they intend building the loco themselves (not unreasonable) in which case they do need a design.
     
  10. Robert Heath No.6

    Robert Heath No.6 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,501
    Likes Received:
    79
    Grab a 2' or 2'6" gauge second hand, dump it on a flat wagon, modify the drive a tad, off you go! ... Off the top of my head I can't think where it was that had road tractors converted as above for shunting :lol:
     
  11. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    14,690
    Likes Received:
    4,951
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Hmmmm ... I think that you could contact any one of those makers and they would quote you a slightly modified standard product pronto ... plus it would come with some sort of warranty .... unlike a home made one.
     
  12. Steve B

    Steve B Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,459
    Likes Received:
    796
    Location:
    Shropshire
    Don't forget that much of what is available "off the shelf" is aimed at the industrial market. Hauling a passenger train at line speed can be a very different situation, but do-able.

    I believe the Welsh Highland/Ffestiniog are also looking at getting more powerful diesel locomotives and coming up with the issue that there aren't any readily available with sufficient power/speed/size, and so will probably need to go for new build as and when money permits. I'm sure if I've got that wrong someone will correct me!

    Steve B
     
  13. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    644
  14. AndrewT

    AndrewT New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Occupation:
    F&WHR Spin Doctor
    Location:
    Maentwrog

    Correct. Two at 800+ HP. Need to be able to haul a dead Garratt and 12 cars at line speed up the 1 in 40.
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    16,298
    Likes Received:
    23,700
    Location:
    21C102
    The LMS for a start! No doubt some of the other companies, and many factories, did similar conversions, the advantage being that - like a horse, but more powerful - a tractor can get to the end of a siding, then hop off and run round without another set of rails being available. So very useful in congested areas.

    But coming back to the IoM: it depends if they need a shunter just for shunting the works, station pilot duties etc, or a loco that can haul passenger trains, or at least act as a rescue loco. Anyone know what they actually require?

    Tom
     
  16. kscanes

    kscanes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    As I understand it from the link at post 13 above, they want a rescue loco but it will also be used on the fire train and for shunting. AILSA, the ex contractors Hunslet is too slow; VIKING the Schoma has a broken engine and is in any case a track wrecker having been regauged from metre by pushing the wheels in on one side only. (All per the director of transport. Who also seemed to say they've had the Schoma since the 1950s but perhaps he was simplifying things for the reporter.)

    OT but does anyone know where the Schoma came from? I have "Dortmund" but does anyone know where it worked?
     
  17. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    644
    Which, I must say, I find rather difficult to believe. Firstly, because surely it doesn't take a degree in engineering to work out that that would be bad for the track; secondly, because surely pushing the wheels in on both sides would be far simpler and cheaper than building a whole new loco?
     
  18. kscanes

    kscanes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,293
    You are right of course; I was only quoting from the linked video. It does seem to me though if it was practicable to correct the lopsided re-gauge, they would have done it by now. I wonder if there is a clearance problem somewhere, perhaps to the transmission (which are not always mounted centrally). But even if that could be sorted out, it still needs a new engine, which probably means a new gearbox, and even when that's done you still have a loco which does not offer the best of visibility.

    I wonder if they've looked at the recent Zillertalbahn diesels: RailPictures.Net Photo: Zillertalbahn D15 Zillertalbahn (Austria) Gmeinder D75BB-SE at Mayrhofen, Austria by Jean-Marc Frybourg , I believe I'm right in saying that these 760mm gauge locos, built by Gmeinder Gmeinder Lokomotivenfabrik GmbH , are based on a standard gauge design - so 3ft gauge should not be difficult.
     
  19. david1984

    david1984 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,916
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Why is not fixing and overhauling it's engine or sourcing of a similar engine that would fit on the loco an option ?, so what if it's 50 years old ?, so are the 20's and 37's still in reliable use with DRS, and the Manx Steamers have shown age of motive power is not an issue if maintained and overhauled correctly.
     
  20. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    644
    Another idea that occurs to me is to build a replica of one of these:
    On Track in the Garden - Waterville & Caherdaniel Railway - F501 Joins the Duty Roster

    It's a proven design, and presumably the drawings still exist somewhere. I'd be surprised if it didn't fit the Manx loading gauge. And because it's a historic design, it would undoubtedly be popular with enthusiasts. Perhaps they could even launch an appeal to raise some of the costs! They could just ask some bored teenagers to make a Facebook group, since apparently that's all you need to start a new-build scheme these days :rolleyes:

    Indeed, perhaps they could ask the revived West Clare if they'd like one too? Then they could save money by bulk-ordering parts.
     

Share This Page