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New builds of extinct diesels

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by ady, Sep 22, 2009.

    Although you have very overtly ignored requests on WNXX to explain precisely how 'taking off' it is... Pie, meet sky, meet BDLPG, meet Alf, meet, Meon Valley fantasist, etc etc...
     
  1. m&gn50

    m&gn50 New Member

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    Over at the IDRS its taken over 3 years to decide on an engineering design, you can imagine the time, effort and money, quietly away. After a successful(and long overdue) AGM which was really needed, but delayed to say constructive matters, a final decision on the magnificent engineering plans was taken, as you can imagine there has been a lot of discussion and sensible debate. Its a recreation, rather than a 'nuts and bolts rebuild, a bit like Tornado with its German Steel boiler and modern fixtures necessary. This would entail new frames for 0.25million, and new bogies for 0.75million etc, funding would be a much bigger-and less realistic ask. This Recreation is now being properly costed, to come up with a Business Plan. We may ask for ongoing donations and volunteers to help with the engine and bogies, but the big fund-raising drive will be with a sensible business case. If our govt, whatever party they are, won't back British Engineering, and want us all to work pointlessly in banks, we need to teach these ideas for the future, when they will still be needed, and get Britain Engineering again!
     
  2. maddog

    maddog New Member

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    I'm hoping a class 50 and a 55 will swap internals. It'll make a new DP2 and the proposed superdeltic if you slightly fettle with the deltic engines.
     
  3. m&gn50

    m&gn50 New Member

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    LMS10000 have placed tenders on the last 58s in Britain. Awaiting news.
     
  4. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Why Class 58s?
     
  5. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The Class 58 frame is so similar to that of 10000 / 1 that few people will be able to note the difference hence it's worth buying something that exists rather than spend money on something which doesn't.
     
  6. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Thanks for the explanation.
     
  7. m&gn50

    m&gn50 New Member

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    Yes the word exists carries great significance in many ways.
     
  8. m&gn50

    m&gn50 New Member

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    58022 has been purchased by LMS10000 project providing frame and other equipment/ancillaries.
     
  9. Mandator

    Mandator Part of the furniture

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    I may be wrong but isn't the DPS or similar recreating a Baby Deltic using the engine that was on display at Barrow Hill. I think it was/is part of the national collection. Last I heard they were converting a class 37 body as they are similar and intend to use class 20 bogies.
    There was a rumour that some of the class 23 bogies may have found their way under class 20s (after modification) although I have no hard evidence of this.
    Re: Gas Turbines. The Brown Boveri GT 18000 was for many years preserved at Winterthur I understand.
    My uncle had some dealings with it as he was an electrical engineer for the company and was given a lovely album of photographs when he retired from BB.
     
  10. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    18000 has been at Didcot for quite while now
     
  11. Mandator

    Mandator Part of the furniture

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    Yep. Done some research. The Baby Deltic project at Barrow Hill. A book about the project is available from their website.
    Re:18000 when retired from BR was shipped back to Europe and used without PU for testing Wheel Rail interaction. Later moved to Vienna for display.
     
  12. Mandator

    Mandator Part of the furniture

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    Regarding converting drawings from metric to imperial as similar operation was needed during the war regarding the manufacture of Merlin engines for Lancasters.
    Ford built a new factory at Trafford Park to produce the engine but were dismayed by the number of different thread forms needed to produce the engine. RR Merlins used something like 60+ different threads, the engine being virtually hand built initially whereas Ford bought the number down considerably but not before having to convert drawings to suit their mass production techniques. Packard in the USA also made the engine for use in Mustangs.
    I am working from memory as I read this story in a book about Ford of Dagenham many years ago so may have got some of the details a little wrong.
     
  13. m&gn50

    m&gn50 New Member

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    Still, great news 10000 is progressing.
     
  14. 8126

    8126 Member

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    I don't know about the threads, but I did read another story about the Ford-built Merlins. Ford had a few engineers down at Derby just before the war assessing the design with a view to setting up the Trafford Park factory. One day one of them wandered into an office occupied by (among others) the Rolls Chief Experimental Engineer:

    "You know, we can't make the Merlin to these drawings."

    "I suppose that is because the drawing tolerances are too difficult for you, and you can't achieve the accuracy," replied a young pup in the RR office.

    "On the contrary, the tolerances are far too wide for us. We make motor cars far more accurately than this. Every part on our car engines has to be interchangeable with the same part on any other engine, and hence all parts have to be made with extreme accuracy, far closer than you use. That is the only way we can achieve mass production."

    So Ford re-drew the whole Merlin to their own standards to permit mass production. By the way, the young pup I mentioned... That was Stanley Hooker, one of the pre-eminent engineers of the early gas turbine age. The story appears in his autobiography, which is very readable if you have any interest in that sort of thing.
     
  15. Mandator

    Mandator Part of the furniture

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    Yep 8126, that's the story I read. Was so long back that I read it I couldn't recall the exact details but that sounds about right. However, I believe that as part of the redrawing process Ford were able to reduce the number of threads used to aid mass production.
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Staying off topic, Packard Merlins also found their way in to the Spitfire and Lancaster amongst others.
     
  17. 99Z

    99Z Guest

    A demonstrable method is to look at the bogies themselves.
    Class 23s were considerably overweight and some quite drastic measures was taken to reduce the weight.
    One such measure was to drill 8 holes in each side of the bogie frames and remove the segments.

    Once scrapped those bogies went back into the class 20 pool.
    Here is one with the holes in (though obviously most of the class doesn't have bogies with holes in).
    http://www.theaylesburynews.com/images/D8048 Loughbro.jpg
    and one without..
    http://www.theaylesburynews.com/images/D8069 Dereham (MNR) 23-6-07.jpg
    and a class 23 to compare against..
    http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/0259.htm
    and to complete the circle, the Portuguese CP1400 with class 20 (not 23 bogies)
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...comotive_in_Porto-Sao_Bento_Train_Station.jpg

    definitive would be to examine the bogie for weld marks relating to the removal of the class 23 cab steps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2016
  18. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The 20s had both varieties of bogies depending on which batch they were built in.
     
  19. 99Z

    99Z Guest

    I refer to my last line of my post..

    Class 20's wouldnt have cab steps in the centre of the bogie, evidence of removal of these steps would be definitive.

    According to a forum elsewhere 20308 has evidence of its being class 23 bogies...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2016

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