New builds - how many will ever really work?

I really hope nobody is going to build a new wc/bc !!! far too many were built in the first place !

Partriot ... perhaps it will get more publicity because of its name. To be fair, I'm not a fan of the class, I think they are rather ugly locos. Good luck to them.

The A1 ... it was more of a peppercorn design than the A2 which was more of his improved version of the Thomson A2,

The clan ... they only made a few anyway, there were much bigger classes that have nobody had preserved or even tried to. It was a vanity act locomotive. If the future of british railways lied in steam, and the way to make locomotives cheaper to build and maintain was reduce the amount of different locomotive classes, why build 12 seperate classes? When the country had loads of light pacifics, piles of express and mix traffic 4-6-0s and they then built the brits and standard 5s, why build the standard 6. IT was a vanity exersize just to build another class of locomotive that there was limited need for, hence they only made a few

 

The Patriot has already had more publicity because of its name and also because they were a well-loved class of locomotives. The project also has the benefit of a well-organised, friendly and motivated team behind it. I'm more of a GWR supporter myself but I'm supporting 45551 because I believe one should have been preserved and because it will represent the heritage railway's tribute to Britain's Service personnel past and present. I have always felt that the Patriot in its unrebuilt form looked "unusual" but they were very effective locomotives and I have no doubt that, when the finished locomotive is rolled out, I'll be reaching for my handkerchief to get the dust out of my eyes. For now, the 45551 picture on my lounge wall will have to suffice.

 

The Bluebell is an LBSCR line, but has no LBSCR express locomotive, the atlantic was always on the wanted list, and the railway had to foresight to aquire the boiler when it could. While the boiler is an Ivatt boiler, its nearly identical to the original design, unlikle the Austerity/Iron Duke which would have had quite different boilers. The boiler is apparently in good condition.

The adams radial will get its turn, but people will always put their money into projects that appeal to them personally. Doing the Atlantic now makes sense, there are still plenty of people around who remember the original, and who want to see the new one running. The same will happen with the Adams radial. Both have value from a preservation view point. I'm sure if you want to see 488 running, the Bluebell trust will happily accept your donations towards it.

Daniel

 

To all intents and purposes it is an identical boiler. The Marsh Atlantics were essentially a near copy of the GNR versions, including boiler, and the boiler we have is a 1941 LNER built one to GNR design. I know 1941 is seventy years old, but actually it has hardly been used in that time (never, for example, having been used on an engine AFAIK), so it is in pretty good condition. The only significant difference between the new loco and the originals will be invisible features forced by the availability of modern materials or different manufacturing techniques: for example, fabricated (not cast) cylinders; and frames 30mm thick rather than 1 1/8inch, with corresponding slight variations in widths of things like frame stretchers to compensate. It won't be an "Iron Duke" with "Austerity" innards!

As for the radial tank - I'd be the first to fund it when the time comes, but as has been pointed out on Nat Pres before, funding isn't a loose pool of money looking for projects to fund. Some people are only putting money in because it is the Atlantic; they wouldn't put money into the Adams tank. Similarly, when the time comes, no doubt some people will fund the Adams tank who aren't currently funding the Atlantic. Hence my choice of saying "sentimental", by which I mean having an attachment to the project that goes beyond cold hearted commercial logic. I have a "sentimental" attachment to the Adams, since it was the first steam engine I ever remember seeing, and I'd like to see it run again. For a project to attract the necessary financial backing, you've got to somehow sell the romance of the end product. Hence the weighting in all the planned new bulids for "namers" and locos at the express / passenger end of the spectrum. It is notable that the only "utilitarian" everyday engines planned as new builds (at least amongst those likely to see the light of day) are closely connected to big societies with the necessary strength to see the projects through (82045, 84030, 47xx etc).

Actually I'd agree with you on this - now we just need to convince the Bluebell Ops department! But that's another argument not for here...

Tom

 

Its interesting, but it hasn't got all the projects by any means

 

Not to poke holes in your in-depth research, analysis and conclusions...but

isn't 19 and 20 the same locomotive ?
And of all of the them in the list, it is the most complete and closest to being finished ?
Yet you think it won't ever be completed or just never completed with the number 670 ?
I wonder what Bob and the team would make of that !

 

Just a thought but wouldn't 48518 also be considered a new build ? (Less of it exists than many new builds?)

 

But no-one's doing anything with it, and since there was not enough enthusiasm to do anything about it when it was at Woodhams, where would the people come from now?

I will say one thing for the timing of these projects - for most of them its probably the last chance. Those of us now in our 50's are probably the last generation with a widespread nostaligia for 'real' steam engines (as opposed to Thomas replcas). Any project that doesn't get off the ground in the next year or two probably has no chance. There will be indiividual young enthusiasts, of course, but you need hundreds if not thousands of contributors to succeed.

I'm not by nature a nay-sayer, but I look at the real world and see a huge financial crisis that will last many years. People above have mentioned lines and projects that people said would never happen and which have. Yes, OK, but that was in a boom period for personal disposable income which most of us have enjoyed most of our lives (the 50 year olds) with only a few short breaks. How many of those projects will succumb when the donations dry up? There is a pool of money and I'd hate to see most of it going into half-finished new builds while existing stuff falls into dereliction.

I'm not talking about the Bluebell situation, it being one of the best funded lines going and having particular reasosn for wanting an Atlantic, moreover I think that projects that start with a major component available have a much better chance.

I'm talking about overall - we will be kicking ourselves if in 10 years time lines are closing or favourite locos becomming static just so as we can have a P2 for mainline when we don't even know if mainline running will be permitted then - look at the situation on the Cambrian if you believe we will have mainline steam 'for ever'.

 

Go wash out your mouth with soap and water young man! There is no such thing as too many Bulleid Pacifics.

 

I recon it's a fad and it will eventually fizzle out. Most of the 'heritage' railway movement relies on nostalgia and at the moment there are people alive who remember particular classes and would rather one had survived, so they start a project to build one. At the moment these folks are in their 50s-70s and have some energy and some money available. In 20 years time the remaining few won't be in a position to be pushing these projects forward and it will come down to the younger generation, those whose only memory of steam is on our preserved lines from the 70s onwards. How many of those folks will want to build a 'Clan', something which by all accounts was a bit of a flop when new and which none of them have ever seen? Maybe the odd person will, but not in the numbers these projects need to succeed.

Personally, I'm not going to waste my money donating to hair-brained schemes to fulfil some old train spotter's fantasy when there are genuine historical artifacts around the country which desperately need financial help to survive.

The only ones really deserving of anybody's money are those which represent a concept which we otherwise can't tell the story of. I'm thinking of things like the Beamish replicas of very early machines, which we simply wouldn't be able to see working otherwise, and things like the Railmotor (although I don't consider this to be a replica, just a rather extensive restoration). All of the others are just variations of a theme, things which may 'look nice' but don't really add anything to our understanding of the steam engine.

Saying all that if I had some Euromillions at my disposal I would quite possibly build a replica steam engine. I just wouldn't bother wasting everyone's time by asking them to pay for it and pretending it was anything other than my own private fantasy.

 

I think your analysis of the Standard classes is flawed. They were spawned in an era where dieselisation was not on the horizon and as for questioning the need for 12 separate classes, the initial intention was to replace the plethora of Big Four classes from class 7 downwards. The fact that this never happened is due to the modernisation plan of 1955. This is one reason for the Clans being a small class, more were planned but events overtook the construction of further batches.

 

Quite right.

PS: don't forget to buy a ticket!

 

Precisely the reason i haven't formed a trust to build mine...

 

Have you ever been involved with a loco project from the outset? Most if not all begin as a private fantasy. 34081 was saved not because of some grand business scheme but because we wanted a Battle of Britain to restore and I suspect similar can be said of many other schemes. We were mostly young and naive but we had a dream and that dream came true. As for those who have never seen a Clan in action, that may well be an inspiration. I'd only ever seen pictures of Spam Cans so I jumped at the chance to help put one back in working order so I could see one in action.
You have the right to donate money wherever you like but don't insult those behind these new builds by calling them "hair brained schemes to fulfil some old trainspotter's fantasy."

 

To be honest Ian some of these schemes that are heralded as the next big thing are hair brained. If every scheme that is thought off was translated into reality then there would not be any abandoned track beds or derelict locos and rolling stock. Moreover, everything scrapped would have been reproduced as a replica, in some cases many times over. Whilst in previous years these daydreams remained private thoughts or discussions round the bar at night, the event of the internet has meant that for the bored or mad a session with microsoft web-site builder and a few pictures another new scheme to build another loco, save another length of dead railway is born. Unfortunately it is often the case the better and more professional looking the website the less likely there is anything behind it other than a 14 year old in his bedroom not getting on with his homework!

Facebook pages & websites do not raise large quantities of money, buy material and create working steam engines - neither do 14 year old Engineering Directors who are founder members of two separate groups.

Sorry I have to disagree with you on this point. I am glad that this thread has created an interesting discussion with many good points of view.

 

Qulaity!! I like it!!!!! "Bulled Forever"!!

 

I refuse to join the widespread criticism/condemnation of these schemes as I've seen it all before. Many people refused to believe that a group of "amateurs" could reopen and run a railway yet group after group has done just that. Many people said of one Barry project after another "it will never steam" or "why bother with that one." The 34081 lads were asked in the early days "why preserve another BB? There's already one preserved (34051)." If my generation had listened to such "wise" words, how many heritage railways and preserved locos etc. would we have now? Not many. Some of these new build proposals will no doubt fail just as line reopening schemes failed in the past - the Sandy & Potton to name but one - but I do not see it as my job to dissuade others from trying.

 

why build 12 seperate classes? When the country had loads of light pacifics, piles of express and mix traffic 4-6-0s and they then built the brits and standard 5s, why build the standard 6. IT was a vanity exersize just to build another class of locomotive that there was limited need for

The railway after the Second World War, was in a hell of a state!! No money in the pot!! Because of the war effort. Men neededc to get back to work after there service to the Country. And there was a signifigant shortage in petrol and Fuel Oild until the mid to late 1950's as it was still rationed. But we had Miliions of tons of Coal!! In a nutshell thats why the Standards were built! and also the post Nationalisation. Black 5's, B1's, L1's. Pannier Tanks, etc!

 

HERE HERE!!! Bulleid Rules!