New Build P2

I'll echo that as far as currently available boiler quality steels go. I gather that Vern with the Sentinel DG6P steam bus at Whitby was surprised at the amount of corrosion on his new firebox after only one year's use.

 

Concerning the proposed P2 it would seem that some drastic modification to make the coupled wheelbase more flexible would be necessary - one of the problems that the originals suffered from. Perhaps having something like 2" smaller diameter cylinders, spacing the outside ones 1" further out and a Krauss-Helmholz pony truck would do it. Increase boiler pressure to 250 psi to compensate.

 

Wouldn't be a P2 replica then, though, would it!

 

Thats the dilemna with a P2, Consider If all the duchesses had been broken up then your new build Mega Stanier could be a replica... sure there would be all kind of debates on shapes colours streamlining di blah, but you would want the thing in its most practical form, ie the ivatt mods and all the other tweaks, and that would be fine because they were ok to start with.
Gresley fan (tick) or no, there's no getting away from the fact that his engines we're super designs which suffered a little in the execution, and each subsequent design seemed to take on board the failings of its predecessors. So a P2 as built not such a good idea as a P2 with all the A4, V2, BR mods incorporated (Which they never got because Thompson rebuilt them)...

Just noting the size of the cylinders - 21 inch diameter is going to worry the loading guage isnt it, but i suppose going to 250psi will allow a reduction...

Somewhere i remember on the Tornado website (you may have to search it) was a link for anyone interested in a new build P2 to register their interest/support...

Ah yes here it is, Under Cylinder Patterns june 1994

REGISTER OPENED FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A GRESLEY CLASS P2 LOCOMOTIVE

" The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust also announced today that it was opening
a register for those interested in helping to build a Gresley P2 class
locomotive once the new A1 is completed.


The P2s were the most powerful passenger locomotives to run on Britain's
railways. They were designed by the legendary Sir Nigel Gresley, Chief
Mechanical Engineer of the London and North Eastern Railway (LNER)
from 1923 until his death in 1941, who was also the designer of “Flying
Scotsman”, arguably the world's most famous locomotive and the
first to reach 100 mph and “Mallard”, the holder of the world
speed record for steam traction of 126 mph since 1938.


The P2s were of a 2-8-2, or Mikado, wheel arrangement, in itself unique
for a mainline express passenger locomotive in the UK. The original
six P2s were built in Doncaster between 1934 and 1936 for use on the
mainline between Edinburgh and Aberdeen where their enormous power
and adhesion was used to haul the heaviest trains over this line of
twisting curves and severe gradients. The original locomotives, Nos
2001-6, were given evocative names associated with the route over
which they worked: Cock o' the North, Earl Marischal, Lord President,
Mons Meg, Thane of Fife and Wolf of Badenoch.


Although undoubtedly a success in the role they were designed for,
they fell victim to internal LNER politics and were rebuilt to become
class A2/2 Pacifics in 1943/4 by Gresley's successor, Edward Thompson.
In their final form they were not particularly successful and were
scrapped between 1959 and 1961.



David Champion, Chairman, A1 Steam Locomotive Trust, commented:

It has always been the Trust's intention that A1 60163 would be the first in a
series of lost but not forgotten ex-LNER steam locomotives to be built in
Doncaster. Now that work is well underway on constructing the first of these,
the 50th class A1, we have decided to make our next objective clear and set up a
register of those interested in and who might have information on the P2s.

There are three main reasons for making this announcement now. First, as with
60163, the new P2 will require several years of careful research before we can
start to cut metal - by starting this work now with the research team who have
almost completed their work on the A1, we can ensure that we keep our volunteer
teams together, build upon skills already learnt and be ready to start
construction of the P2 immediately following the completion of the A1.

Second, there are many common parts between A1s and P2s, including the boiler,
and so it is only sensible to make use of this economy of scale. Finally, it is
only by successfully completing 60163 that we can go on to build more ex-LNER
steam locomotives. I would urge all of those interested in building a new P2,
and others, to come forward and covenant towards the completion of the new A1. "

So there you go

 

As a covenantor, I got a letter from Mark Allatt today, confirming a feasability study to build a P2, which would be numbered 2007. Apparently this was announced at Shildon on Sunday, so I am not stealing anyone's thunder.

'We are examining the commercial, engineering and certifications challenges that we would face in completeing that development work to make a new P2 a sucess'.

The letter points out the 'commonality' with the A1, as around 70%.

Also, Tornado will be going Brunswick Green in the winter, but only for a limited period.

Link, http://a1steam.com/index.php?option...tudy-announced&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=123

 

As long as they make it look like 2001 as built, they can make what technical changes they like and I'll sign on the dotted line.

 

If they go with the Warcharts valve gear with the original front end like 2002 then they may have to add the extra deflectors that I think ruined the look, the poppet valves on 2001 lifted the smoke better so was not modified.

Maybe a few years down the road then it could be converted to a Thompson 4-6-2!!!!

David

 

Brunswick Green - shock horror!!!

Cue the paint warriors off the 6233 thread!!!!!!

What happened to the B R Blue? - that would look superb on her!

 

]

2001 got piston valves and Walschaerts gear after a while and ended up with the extra deflectors as per 2002 and later the wedge nose of course.
Anyone suggesting it should be rebuilt as one of Mr. Thompson's awful machines should go and wash his mouth out with bleach, disinfectant and drain cleaner.

 

Glad to hear that the Darlington lads are thinking of going through with the P2. Really looks an attractive and a beast of a locomotive!! As for 60163 going in Brunswick Green, i'm really looking forward to seeing her in that. Must admit though, BR blue would really look stunning!

 

She will go in blue as well at some time, the aim is to cycle through all the possible liveries. She came out of the works with a lipped chimney, so I assume that will go back on.

While she is in Brunswick green she will carry both the cycling lion and the later crest, but Apple green is recognised as her 'core' livery, anything else is seen as temporary.

I just hope they can build the P2 before I am too old to see or travel behind it. Maybe this one will be faster to build now they've had practice. In the meantime, the black and white picture of 2001 at King's Cross on the A1 Trust website has become my desktop. I dunno if there's already a link to it in this thread, but the Pathe news site has footage of 2001 on test in France.http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=5566

 

I hope the P2 project is successful as its such an interesting class.

 

Don't know if it helps anyone, but there is a background to the P2 proposals in the latest Railway Herald - Issue 220 - that was out on Monday. Hope it comes out in the original style with big smoke deflectors! Has anybody heard a timescale??

I've only just joined the forum, but looking forward to becoming more and more involved.

 

Plenty of coverage in the Beano (sorry your new, thats 'Steam Railway' comic) and also on the website. Timescale will depend on Money scale...

 

Reading Steam Railway there's a lot in common.. boiler, cab, cartazzi, tender..

I'm sure plenty of people may disagree with me but Whilst robbing peter to pay paul, if they focused on Wheels, Frame, Cylinders and Motion.. the Tender, Cab and Boiler (and support coach) from 60163 could mean a working P2 in 7 years not 17, giving 10 years to buy the rest of it for Tornado.

I'm sure they have thought of it, but maybe float A1 Steam on the stock exchange.. I'd buy some shares in the company.

 

About 70% of parts are similar I think I've read. Hope it's in the style of 2001.

 

Hmm...I am bit wary of commenting on this but NELPG I think just want to see the loco back on the mainline. If someone wanted to purchase the loco from the Drury's I think NELPG would be happy to enter into discussions about overhauling and/or operating the loco.

 

I am pleasantly surprised to see everyone so far in favour of the original streamlining / deflectors warn by 2001 and 2002 as built. Personally I love the look of these but thought it would be a rather love / hate thing and polarise people more than it seems to.

I would love to see an original P2. However, IMHO the trust would be better served by building a 'secondary mainline engine' such as a B16. Then Tornado and the smaller 4-6-0 could haul different legs of the same tour - the 4-6-0 going to more clearance restricted places or where the high speed running is not needed (I speak as someone who has no idea of the current route availability of Tornado!). A P2 I see as just taking work (perhaps just a small amount) off the A1. Furthermore I would rather see a class that didnt make it into preservation but that was very successful (indicated by a large class size) rather than a P2 which only ever had six examples.

As for improving the existing design; modifying it; etc etc etc I refer you to the Thompson rebuild as an A2/2. Yes AFASK these werent successful but why re-build and engine thats already had one attempt at re-building - why not start from an A2/2 and modify that. Likewise I have not read up on the LNERs engineers but Thompson seems to get a lot of unfair press simply for modifying Gresley’s designs (who seems to have been worshiped akin to a god - with apologies to those of a religious nature). The only apparent way Thompson could have been accepted as a 'good' designer would have been to stick with Gresley principles like Collett did with Churchwood.
IMHO the K1 and A2 classes were very successful designs, and although credited to Peppercorn, the foundation for these was created by Thompson (granted the A2s in particular were additionally modified) as the K1/1 and A2/3 the latter which was itself a development of the A2/2.
Hence your honour (and anyone who has suck with me so far) I submit that the ultimate development of the P2 is already represented in preservation by Blue Peter.

Having said all that the P2 has two major plus points as I see it:
1) Its big - and quite simply the inference is that you need a big, glamorous engine into order to raise large amounts of funds - the irony being the more it costs (within reason) the more likely you are to be able to fund it.
2) The boiler. Again I havent checked the facts on this but if as the A1 Trust seem to state the boiler is the same as the A1's, this could be the first part of the project completed as simply swapped for Tornado's when the latter is due for overhaul, saving time and increasing revenue.

BTW: I am an A1 Trust covenanter

 

Just a quick note on liveries. I am dissapointed it will not be going blue next. However, I understand the reason for this is that a member(s) who contributed a significant amount is unwell and reaching old age and it is simply a nice jesture to paint the locomotive as he (they) remember it.

Of more concern to me is the statement that 'Apple Green' will be its core colour. I probably like Apple Green more than the majority on hear but am disappointed that it will not continuously cycle between colours. However, again, while it displeases me, I understand the basis in its marking appeal to the general public.