New Build P2

I suspect it will be some time in the future before the A1 people consider another new build. I heard a comment recently from someone concerned with another new build that the A1 lads still have something like £800,000 in loans of one form or another to repay for Tornado.

On the discussion earlier, the ORR do appear keen that where possible new-builds to conform as closely as possible to the original drawings and specification, so I suspect that building a "P2 updated for the 21st Century" would be a difficult process, apart from anything else just gaining ORR acceptance.

 

I think you will find the 800k figure was dated about september last year, since then they have paid of substantial amounts, and with 100 running days this year, you would think they would be in a position of approaching the black.

The number of covenantors continues to rise, and in these bleak financial times, the a1 team are acting as pathfinders for future projects in terms of fundraising, loco exposure to the press, and the professional way everything is handled.

Really early in this thread, they were doubters as to whether the loco would every get finished, never mind make the mainline and be a sucess, how wrong they have been proven..

 

Thanks. I was not making the comment about the indebtedness as any form of criticism, indeed knowing how well organised they are, I am sure they will have plans to deal with the loans, presumably before they get to --I imagine--the five-year point and an intermediate overhaul.

 

You are dead right about the 5 year split plan, hopefully the 10 year overhaul should not be too taxing.

As people have said, its brand new out of the box!!!

 

I don't know how much the A1 team get for a main line run but I have had it suggested that it is about £1600. Whether it is fact or not, it can be used as a basis for calculation, taking the 100days/year quoted above. This will give a figure of £160K/annum. If £800K was owed, and assuming interest free(!), it will take five years to pay off the debt, assuming no running costs. But there will be running costs and don't they have at least one paid employee?

Brand new out of the box it may be but it won't be in 10 years time. There has been a lot of discussion elsewhere about the life off steel fireboxes and 10 years seems to be a reasonable figure. Even if it isn't, I doubt that a steel box would go another 10 years without replacement, which is what people would be looking for. If this is so, don't expect the boiler overhaul to be cheap, even if you can easily cut and weld with steel.
As anyone in this game will tell you, the figures never add up to a decision that the mind would make and the heart is going to have to rule.

 

I would think that it would be more than £1600 for a mainline run, I know of an engine that does not go off shed on a mainline run for less than £5000.

I dont understand why the steel firebox wont last another 10 years without replacement, there are plenty of locos in preservation that have steel fire boxes (Bullieds and S160's to name a couple) that have run for years without having the fireboxes replaced and they are not brand new fireboxes.

 

Remember every trip involving tornado seems to involve a premium of at least £10.00, over a period of a few years that would add up to a tidy sum.

If i thought tornado was getting only £1500.00 per mainline trip, im sure the business plan would not have worked to make her a sucess on the mainline.

The later figure would make more sense for a mainline trip, regarding the firebox, 10 years time will tell for the firebox, until then we should avoid jumping to conclusions. When designing and purchasing the boiler, the team would have factored these events in.

 

Tornado is well managed and fortunately very popular. On an estimated turnover of about £ 350,000 a year at least a £100,000 must be available to pay off loans... this means that funds for the overhaul /will start to acccrue about half way through the boiler ticket.

Indeed as stated before, if funds allow it wouldn't surprise me if boiler no 2 isnt already on certain minds, with boiler no 1 destined for 'something else'

It would not surprise me at all if Tornado drives itself to Meinningen for its boiler service and new Boiler or no it will be overhauled and back on the rails in less than a month....

(Maybe theyll paint it black red underframe and borrow some trough smoke deflectors for the trip...)

 

Interesting thought about Menningen. Not sure about on the rails all the way but it's a nice idea.

 

Thinking on, the A1 team clearly want to do something else, but if for whatever reasons there is an insurmountable obstacle to a P2 (it just in the end isnt feasible) then whats on the subs bench ?, as 4771 isnt likely to run again as the NRM cant repair and wont replace the Cylinder block, i think its likely to be a V2, with the later split castings and almost certainly a Kylchap, it will be good for ' 7P'. It would be nice to think that with the commonality of components that, Blue Peter might benefit from some custodial arrangement...

 

I think the Drury family and NELPG might have something to say about that...

 

Good. Custodial not a good choice of word, co-operative perhaps a better one. and ones lotto millions might just go on getting another boiler made for use of either as needed.

 

People keep saying that, but have the A1 trust ever actually made such a statement officially? There's a huge difference between a small but vocal group of A1 members wanting to do something new, and the A1 trust as a whole actually committing themselves to a new project as a group.

It would be extremely difficult in today's economic climate to repeat the Tornado project to a similar level of success, and I imagine that the trustees are more concerned with running Tornado/clearing debts than building another loco. I would think that the A1 trusts involvement in a new build project would be on an advice/loan of equipment basis rather than adding to debt or stretching volunteer support too thinly.

Realism strikes again!


Keith

 

i think that the A1 trust will have enough on their plate with just looking after Tornado, but saying that, would it need a new boiler, after all, no one knows just how the boiler would age it might just need a re tube? if it is given a mid life overhaul at 5 years how long in service did the MN's go between boiler changes?.
Unless a replacement boiler has been factored in then as far as i can see its a case of which road is best for the trustees, a quick re boiler to allow a fast return or repair of the one fitted.
A trip from london to germany ,now that would be something, but what do you do about the tunnel, steam is not allowed to run , plus the gradients , it would have to be towed dead which would defeat the object , unless special dispensation is sought in which case how long before we see clan line and the vsoe running through to paris and the whole vsoe orient express being steam hauled

 

Martin, i think we can be quite sure steam will never be allowed through the Channel Tunnel, and it would probably be cheaper to low-load it across on a ferry than try and get permission to be towed dead. That said, if the rest of the journey was done in steam i cant imagine there would be many people seeing it as a failure.

Chris

 

would it need a new boiler, after all, no one knows just how the boiler would age it might just need a re tube? if it is given a mid life overhaul at 5 years how long in service did the MN's go between boiler changes?.
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Hopefully it wouldnt: as usual i'm in the land of what if... And if a new build P2 is in the offing -working off the same design boiler as Tornado, then a second boiler is a logical step - enabling that quick turnaround.. . even if its only a retube( those German fellas can really turn em round fast), who better to service your boiler than the manufacturer and it would be a good reason to run in Germany. How she would get there will take a bit of thinking through though...

 

It suprises me that other people are not taking advantage of the facilities in germany.

Alright, it may be overseas, but the speed and quality of work are a great advert for them.

 

As I said, I've no idea about hire fees for Tornado and I'm quite happy to be told I'm wrong. £5000/trip puts a different spin on it but I'd be surprised if it is as much as this.

When it comes to the firebox life, though, I'm sticking to what I've said. There's plenty of documentary evidence to say that steel fireboxes in regular use have a life of around that, including Bulleid ones, and the recent history of steel fireboxes in the KWVR & NYMR Standard tanks support it. The steel box on No.29 likewise only managed 10 years. If you get to 10 years, the box may have some life left in it but you have to make a judgement on whether you are going to get sufficient extra life to warrant leaving it in. There's another factor in play, as well, and that is the quality of steel available today is not as good as it once was when it comes to corrosion resistance. Boiler treatment may play a positive part but, when you are tramming up and down the country using water of variable quality it gets quite hard to get the dosage right.

 

Some engines command £1,000 a steaming on a preserved railway, but some mainline engines I know of command considerably more than £5,000.

I think the days of SLOA's £2k per engine at an open day are long gone.

 

From Past Times list of unsecured creditors the MNLPS were listed 8.8k ( Which must have been for the 1 Uk Railtours trip run through Past Time) , and the Tangmere Loco Co 12.8k( for the 2 Swanage trips i presume?)