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Network rail been given ok to chop part of Liverpool rd line Manchester

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by charterplan, May 18, 2014.

  1. charterplan

    charterplan New Member

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  2. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Nat Pres stalwart

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    I am a preservationist with the best of you, but I am also a supporter of rail travel, especially for city dwellers or those of us who wish / need to gain access to cities from the countryside. Improving transport links may well (as it has done at London Bridge) involve sweeping away historic items and structures. We are fortunate now to live in a time of railway development, as opposed to the two decades of retrenchment that was just coming to an end when I joined British Railways in the mid-80's. Liverpool Road is nice, but offers a very limited experience of rail travel, beyond what static museums can do. So no, its not a question of money over heritage, but one of improving rail facilities for which, sometimes, heritage has to stand to one side.

    Robin
     
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  3. charterplan

    charterplan New Member

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    Maybe so, but Network rail was given another route which would have saved a viaduct and allowing steam to visit, or locos to be transported for repair via rail,as the link to the main line is still there, once they put this link in, they will not be able to, and all movements will be by road, I still think Network rail should take the alternative.
     
  4. simon

    simon Part of the furniture

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    What was the alternative route?
     
  5. charterplan

    charterplan New Member

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    It was to provide a crossover I think, but was something to do with keeping the old viaduct too.
     
  6. charterplan

    charterplan New Member

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  7. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Member

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    Frank, I thought you were banned? As pointed out before the 'Blind Lane Curve' is not an alternative to the Ordsall Chord as it doesn't allow through services to call at both Victoria, Piccadilly and Oxford Road, Mayfield is on the wrong side of the through lines to make any sense as a terminus, and a mainline connection that's only been used on a couple of occasions should not dictate the future of railway services across the North.

    Chris
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
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  8. std tank

    std tank Member

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    Cat is out of the bag!!!
    Any Piccadilly to Victoria trains calling at Oxford Road would really clog up the system. It is bad enough now.
    If you care to look at the map then you will see that the route taken by the chord seriously curtails the operation of the railway at MOSI as well.
    You are obviously a person who could not give a damn about history.
     
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  9. Standard 4MT

    Standard 4MT New Member

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    It is not a affordable option, and although a Heritage supporter you can only go so far, and save so much.
    This was underused and to service the three other Manchester Stations the best move is as suggested.
    Passengers and cost must come before trying to save this which to me serves no purpose in the current routes required to operate a proper system.
    Many would go as far as to stop all steam on main line so give and take May be only ways in the future to proceed.
     
  10. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Member

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    ...which is why the double track through to Oxford Road and Piccadilly is being remodelled and resignalled to increase capacity and which will benefit from the removal of conflicts east of Piccadilly, with grade separation of Ordsall Lane Jct a future possibility.

    It's more than possible to 'give a damn' about the past whilst acknowledging the need for change.

    Let's be clear, we aren't talking about a location untouched since the days of the Liverpool & Manchester - it's actually a perfect example of how both the area and it's railway infrastructure developed over the decades which continues to this day with the erection of electrification masts and wires. Designed and built appropriately the Chord only adds to that history of ongoing change, and will hopefully result in much more being made of an area that the vegetation alone would suggest has long been neglected.

    Chris
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
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  11. You can't save everything.
     
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  12. I just came across the following quote online. I thought it was apt in this instance, as well as other discussions on this and many other railway forums. Indeed the whole feature is quite apt...

    "All that the internet has demonstrated is there were always people in the community who speak before they think, who are liberal with their outrage and don’t understand proportion."
     
  13. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Member

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  14. John Stewart

    John Stewart Well-Known Member

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    I have read the Secretary of State's decision letter and have at least skim-read the Inspector's report. I have seen similar, although less contentious, outcomes in my professional life. If I may try to summarise a very complex situation, it seems that Option 15 was fully viable and had it been in the forefront of options right at the beginning of the project it might well have been that it would have emerged as the preferred option to avoid the substantially damaging impact on the historic environment. I consider that Network Rail's resistance to it came from (i) an institutional unwillingness to accept that others could design a better railway, (ii) a very real fear that changing the scheme would lead to a serious slippage of the whole Northern Hub project and (iii) a wish to avoid possibly endless complications in imposing the railway on the Locks site. To me the S of S has taken the undoubted delay to the Northern Hub of declining to agree the scheme substantially as submitted as being the greatest risk to the public interest. He is entitled to do that and I doubt that any legal challenge will succeed. I am pleased that English Heritage fought its case so vigorously, which is something of a contrast to the line taken by MOSI, but then that is a local institution and, possibly subconsciously, its views were influenced by a perception of what was best for the citizens of the two cities.
     
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  15. DJH

    DJH New Member

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    John.

    You are very correct in your sentiments. With regard to MoSIs stance the original objection proposed was very thorough, I've read it, and they had a strong case. With regard to the track use within the report the number of passengers that are taken by Planet or Agecroft stands at 50,000 a year.

    Chris,

    With regard to the link it wasn't just this that is the issue with the chord but the sighting of the structures and how they are linked together. Stephensons Bridge will now be isolated from the rest of the site. This bridge, itself dictated by the height of sailing vessels on the Irwell, dictated the whole layout of the Station and goods yard. It also explains the split level of the site. The level of the bridge explains why the platform is at the first floor whilst the lower yard slopes towards the river. The line must also be one of very few heritage lines where almost all of its running line is on bridges and viaducts.

    Whilst I could post on here regarding the reasons for the change of heart at MoSI I will instead look to how MoSI and it's rail operation can somehow continue. As it stands the Museum will lose the head of the Y of it's running line resulting in a loss of about 2/3rds of the track that it can operate on. it would also curtail any use of track on the Granada side. Whilst some of you may have been present when that section was not run on on a particular day this was due to Coronation Street filming nearby. Noise wasn't the issue but rather Planet and the carriages shaking the indoor sets as they went past! (The sets being in the steel sheds)

    The line that will remain will run from the current Liverpool Road East to the end of Water Street Bridge. One alternative for operations would be if the Y is reversed. During the chord dig it became apparent that more of the original arrivals station survived than expected. An alternative operation could therefore start at the original departures station including being called by the bell to board and arrive at the old arrivals station (rebuilt). On exiting the train one could be led to the secret gem that few know is there. As I mentioned at the start one of the big issues is the separation of the listed structures. If passengers were able to go to ground level they could then be taken through the old arrivals station and the taxi depot of 1830 (horses stables) and finish at the Irwell riverside. A few years ago it was talked about having a boat service along the Irwell and this could then be a boarding point for leisure trips.

    As for the present enjoy the site in it's current configuration. Once works begin it will really change. Before the connection does go I have one request to Network Rail, if they are reading this. Given it was an 1830s engine that first crossed this connection bound for Liverpool all those years ago it would be fitting if it could be an 1830s engine that is the last. Planet, built by many who originally saved the site for today and was built and assembled at Liverpool Road is a fine working example. Therefore can you see to it that Planet is allowed one outing and so do a return trip to Liverpool from Manchester on the old L&M.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015
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  16. nanstallon

    nanstallon Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it would be nice if there could be a farewell trip over the connection.

    John
     
  17. Enterprise

    Enterprise Well-Known Member

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  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A disappointing outcome.
     
  19. John Stewart

    John Stewart Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. If the court had disallowed the SofS' decision the entire project would be put back years with terrible disbenefits to the economic generation of the north-west. At consultation stage I wrote a long essay o NR setting out how the link could be retained with the chord in their preferred position. I was unsurprised that it didn't get adopted!
     
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  20. DJH

    DJH New Member

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    The connection is, I understand, going this weekend.
     
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