modern WHR motive power (what should happen? your views)

I am having touble connecting your reply with my post or is it another of your 'curved ball replies'? As I understand it, if either 143 or 87 fails at present there is a big problem unless a loco can be borrwed from FR. And what has happened to the diesel or is that rude to ask?

 

If you can point me at a railway that operates a more intensive service, I would be extremely surprised.

But doesn't that point to the need for more locos that are capable of handling the service? I'd have thought that high priority ought to be given to getting one of the NG 15s going to see how it compares with a Garratt. If word of mouth is true and there is little difference in capabilty then they are arguably a better engine, with a lot less to maintain, and it might not be too late to get a couple more.

 

138 is hardly a mid term service, this is the first time the bogies have had serious attention since arrival in Wales. After 10 years work they were put back under 138 after the boiler had its 10 cert with very little done to them, and then it ran another season and a half until 143 came back.

87 is clanking a bit, but nothing like as bad as 138 was. Hopefully 87 will get some attention this winter, and then next year we should have three garratts to run the service, that will relieve the pressure until 134 comes along.

I do not disagree an NG15 will be a welcome change, and possibly herald a change in loco policy.

We do not need more loco's, we need more carriages, and sheds to put all the toys in....we still leave an NGG16 out every night at Blodge...needing longer to raise steam every morning...all a bit silly.

Regards

Peter

 

A Garratt can certainly run on one 'engine' but it wouldn't then have the power for a full length train, so no help there. The NG15's are as yet unproven, although everyone concerned hopes they will be able to do the job with the current train length. (Which is actually shorter than originally planned). But I wouldn't like to see them replace the Garratts - that would be as silly as the Festiniog building more Ladies instead of using the Fairlies.

The Garratts seem to do exactly the job they were asked to do and the tourists - maybe unlike some enthusiasts - don't seem to care that they always have a tank in front of their 'face'. These are locos doing what they were designed for - working a relatively intensive heavy service over a difficult line. Of course they wear, but goodness me, a bit of wear and clanking on a hard used steam loco? Who'd a thunk it? Dig out your Argo Transacords and just see how much clanking you can detect.

I'm sure K1 will eventually be reliable, but in any case it is essentially irrelevant - it isn't powerful enough for the normal service. But it is an extremely interesting and valuable historic item, and the fact that it is in service at all given its history is amazing - almost as if the original Rocket or Locomotion (or Little Wonder!) were still running.

I'm glad I don't have to make the financial decisions - there are many things crying out to be done, but after all we do have a working railway - just lots more left to do than maybe many of us naively thought!

 

If ,as Andrew asserts in an earlier post, trains run at a profit even if it is only the First Class coach that is full, then why continue to run longer trains? A fairly simple survey would show on how many occasions trains are filled to capacity [my guess is very rarely] and if that is not happening then surely a smaller loco would suffice?

As someone involved in the holiday industry in the area I'm not sure that the WHR has got it's marketing right. Again I don't have the figures, but WHR should have them, but my guess is that most journeys start at Porthmadog. Caernarfon is not a place where holidaymakers tend to stay - not on a beach, few caravan parks and self-catering accommodation. It tends to attract day trippers and they are unlikely to choose a trip on the WHR, at £33 a go for adults making the full trip and a long day at over 5 hours on the train. - ok for enthusiasts but probably not for families with children. Walkers and people wanting to climb Snowden might travel as far as Rydd Ddu but the majority of them would probably use other, cheaper, transport as the destination is more important than the ride.There is not much more to attract general tourists to this spot as it is in the middle of nowhere with few facilities within walking distance.

Porthmadog and the surrouding area, on the other hand, attracts more of the budget family holidaymakers. Again I can't see that many of them being able to splash out £70 or more for a family of two adults and three children, even allowing for concessions, free child with each adult etc, for a full round trip. Beddgelert with its tea shops, pubs and riverside walks and, maybe, Nantmor for the walk up the Pass are a far more attractive proposition for this market. I therefore think there is a case to run more trains on this stretch of the line and to market and price them to attract new customers who currently find the round Caernarfon trip unattractive. These trains could be shorter than those currently doing the full run and therefore use other motive power.

This topic raises an issue that I am sure was discussed when planning approval forthe project was being discussed. This is whether the line is purely a tourist attraction in itself or whether it is part of the transport infrastructure of the area. If it is the latter then I think it is pricing itself out of that market.

 

The Railway does wonders for the area. There are many struggling small towns in North Wales, yet Porthmadog is a thriving town. To suggest that the WHR and FfR don't have a significant part to play in injecting much needed cash into the area is total madness.

 

Why not come along on Monday-Thursday five minutes before departure and see if you can find a seat?

 

Another "expert" who knows better than the WHR how to run it's business.

 

I think it makes sense to have a Loco with more power than needed for the intended train, supposing one WHR service in particular gets an unexpected surge in demand, you can react to that by adding some coaches to the formation, something you can't with a smaller loco working near it's limit, I've seen this happen plenty of times at Paignton and luckily the freight tanks have the grunt to deal with it.

 

The point about a full first class carriage more than covering the train's operating costs is that the passengers in the remaining eight 3rd class cars would be pure profit.

It should be remembered that the WHR isn't a 'two returns to the end of the line' railway. It has intermediate stations that people actually want to travel to and from - namely Waunfawr, Rhyd Ddu and Beddgelert. We see a lot of people travelling from Caernarfon to Waunfawr (30 mins each way) and spending an hour or so in the pub next to the station before returning. There's a lot of traffic from both ends of the line to Beddgelert and many people do a half return trip to Rhyd Ddu where there's a simple cross platform interchange to catch the train back to your starting point.

As to the point that most punters start their journeys from Port rather than Caernarfon, where do you think they started from between 1997 and 2011 when the railway wasn't open through to Port?

The 1000 CFN-PRT this morning left Caernarfon with 83 passengers on board (Saturdays are quiet days) and by the time it gets to Harbour it will have double that. The 0935 PRT-CFN left with 73 on board. And the first class was full.

 

Fear not! I am not going to risk a tetchy response by making any suggestions whatsoever. Nevertheless it is sad when well expressed comments, such as those put forward by Mickpop, get the "not invented here" treatment whether right or wrong. A sad commentary on human tribalism really.

Obviously it is beginning to dawn that it will be very difficult to run the WHR profitably once the initial novelty has worn off and wear and tear add to the expense thereof.

There is a good thread elsewhere in National Preservation regarding the comparative advantages economically of operating Mk. 1 stock or more vintage, lighter weight equipment. The good natured way in which that has been conducted could be copied.

 

The difference between that thread and this is that on the other thread no one is suggesting that anyone has got it wrong - I haven't seen anyone there posting anything that someone could take exception to. Even the criticisms of the state of some passenger carrying vehicles will probably be recognised by the railways concerned as criticisms that they would make of themselves and would put right if they could.

On this thread, however, (and on other F&WHR threads) it seems quite common to want to tell the railway that they are getting it wrong. The FR (F&WHR) has been in the business for something like 57 years, rebuilt two railways, equipped them, run and maintain them. They run a travel business, a railway engineering workshop that does many outside jobs, and contribute enormously to the local economy. They have learned a thing or two along the way, and know more about their business - what will, or wont, work - what they would like to do, but can't afford yet - than any of the rest of us onlookers. Like most attractions in the area they have their quiet days (which are good days to visit), and are effected by the weather, but they will understand that. They have also shown that they are able to change midstream if the opportunity arises (like the extra services they added last year from Port to Pont Croesor) when it proves practicable.

Yes there can be some tetchy replies, and I wouldn't want to excuse that, but bear in mind that some of the tetchiest come from those who actually know what is going on, want to defend their railway/business, and get the correct information out there. At least they do take part in the discussion - which they don't have to. There are key players from other railways who used to post on Nat Pres, but no longer do so, partly because of the hassle they got on here. I hope that the likes of Andrew T don't follow them.

Steve B

 

The object of my post has wandered slightly. I am not suggesting the RhE/FR have got it wrong but expressing concern that they are down to just 2 operating locos.

Will it ever be possible to have easily interchangable Garratt bogies and will there ever be 2 spare serviced bogies that will fit all three Garratts?

This is loco availability cut to the bone. Surely another rake of coaches has to follow a more secure loco availability. I do suspect, however, that there was a reliance that 109 would become available quite quickly as was promised in the massive publicity that P.W. enjoyed. I have a suspicion that a more focussed drive to complete 134 (then 133) would bring more dividends that can be imagined.

Those who arrive 5 minutes before a train departs to find it full, will take another one later or at a later date.

 

Two operating Garratts is fine for the present timetable. If one of them has to be put on the naughty step, we have Castell Caernarfon ready to replace it. Take off the spares (the NWNGR and FR carriages) from one set and the Funkey is well within its comfort zone.

Incidentally, the work on 138 involves the replacement of just about every moving part on both power bogies and conversion to coal firing. Hardly minor.

These things always take longer than one would like, but to put it into context, at the moment, Boston Lodge has to deliver a minimum of five steam locos every day for the service trains, while rebuilding 138, Prince and Bill, getting Vale of Ffestiniog back into service (cracked gearbox casing - not a quick job), building the occasional footbridge and carrying out work for external customers including the Talyllyn and London Transport, while refurbishing carriages and building new ones for ourselves.

 

Passengers don't like being packed in either - they like to have some personal space. The worst possible thing is for them to go away and tell friends/family/colleagues etc that they were packed in and uncomfortable.

 

As far a spares for the ng16s there are 3 ng16s at exmoor doing nothing and unless the whr extends to Bangor or the Fr is rebuilt to whr tolerances which i do think either will ever happen and with 5 ng16s 2 ng15s and k1 for steam services no other locos are needed but the farret loco would be interesting to see, the main parts of the garret is the bogeys and boiler that get the most ware so if a par of bogeys and a boiler were acquired from exmoor overhauls could take weeks instead of months as the bogeys could be overhauled and stored ready to fit and the boiler could be overhauled but not finished so a full ticket could be obtained when in use. But it all depends on money

 

Oh dear - time to put on my bulletproof vest! I thought this was a forum for discussion. I'm not aware of claiming I am an expert or that the WHR or FR don't know how to run their business. I was merely trying to make a constructive point based on my experience and am quite willing to be proved wrong in statistical terms. I am sure the railways would like to increase their revenue. I do know what some of the tourists who stay in the area have to say about riding on those railways and some have commented on issues like ticket price,duration of trip etc. Some of what Andrew T says supports my view, ie that some passengers want to make a shorter trip and that offering additional trains at certain times might increase overall numbers [and that was the link to the issue of what locos could be used]. After all it is difficult to count the numbers who choose not to ride on the railway nor to ask their reasons for it.On a purely unscientific and random viewing of trains since the railway opened I am still of the view that many run less than half full and so packingthem in like sardines and people being turned away is not an issue.83 may sound like a lot of pasengers but with coach capacities of 36 or even 42 that leaves a lot of empty seats.Anyway I shall be in the area from tomorrow and will see if I am wrong.

 

"Passengers don't like being packed in either"

The superbarns are the most comfortable spacious coaches ever for a 2ft gauge railway. Filling up the seats in one can hardly be described as 'packing them in'. It is not the Tokyo underground!

 

As far a spares for the ng16s there are 3 ng16s at exmoor doing nothing and unless the whr extends to Bangor or the Fr is rebuilt to whr tolerances which i do think either will ever happen and with 5 ng16s 2 ng15s and k1 for steam services no other locos are needed but the farret loco would be interesting to see, the main parts of the garret is the bogeys and boiler that get the most ware so if a par of bogeys and a boiler were acquired from exmoor overhauls could take weeks instead of months as the bogeys could be overhauled and stored ready to fit and the boiler could be overhauled but not finished so a full ticket could be obtained when in use. But it all depends on money

Before committing the property of the Stirland family to the WHR, have you confirmed that they are happy for them to do so? Having said that, Ithink that one of the remaining NG16s has a poor boiler and might provide another pair of power bogies, if needed. However, I'd have thought that a spare boiler would be of more use as the rate of boiler repairs seems to be limiting factor in most general overhauls.

 

WHR already has one 'spare' NG16 (140) which has been used as a float of parts - the boiler and one of the bogies are currently in use. However no heritage railway works has yet got to the point where it has spare boilers overhauled and ready to be fitted in the event of a failure.