Manxman

Stan,
Thankyou for the 100th post on this issue.
Please, please spare me from the un-optimistic commentary - think if we could reverse the problems - if the berth could be got then we would nearly be in business. If you see someones house smoldering away you'd call the Fire Brigade wouldn't you? And bang on a couple of doors, look for a ladder... whatever. I wouldn't be selling photos to the Mirror.

Ask not what could happen to your Manxman but what you can do for your Manxman.

So. Does anyone disagree with me - that whilst the v/l still exists - she can be saved!

 

To all - you really need to talk to the people who made up the Manxman steamship company. They have been there up to their armpits and got precisely nowhere. The biggest fly in the ointment was Peel Holdings who think that because they have thrown a few crumbs at the Daniel Adamson that they have done their bit for heritage. I regularly work in the coastal excursion scene with people who were part of that project, and who were devastated when Liverpool City, Museums and Galleries on Merseyside, Peel, NWDA et al just walked away.

If Peel's architects, planners and designers had a crumb of creativity they would see that Manxman, gutted and refurbished as a hotel, conference centre, and event venue, in Wirral Waters would be a world class centrepiece, but we are dealing with capitalism red in tooth and claw and not business men of vision and imagination. Look at the UBoat or the warships for your lesson.

Re-engined with modern whispering diesels, and capable of sailing, she could be a mascot for the company - a touring ambassador as well as a source of education, sea going fine dining and overnighting too - but all these people understand is high rise yield. I understand that because I am one of them (not a Peel employee) and know how their mindset works, and also how a mature company with an eye on its history and social role should behave.

If there is a ghost of a chance that Manxman could be saved I would be with it in a flash - but all there is at the moment is a cruel mirage.

 

Manxman is a solidly built ship with a higher than usual spec to a wartime standard. Her main deck was strong enough to take armaments and her keel was ,I am given to understand,of larger section than usual. She had the most generous passenger ticket in the uk-the total allowed on board surpassed that of QM and QE.. There were rumours recently abounding that she had broken her back in dry dock-Rubbish. Stan is right about the study-it is being carried out by Strathclyde University who were engaged by Pallions.The funding for this comes from a French based Euro Quango which no doubt dishes out large amounts of cash for this to examine the impact of scrapping a ship on the environment blah blah blah. It's a pity that they couldn't dish out cash for a study on the impact on the environment to restore the ship-failing that just hand over the cash to the cause!
I last spoke to Pallions in June and the writing was definitely on the wall for Manxman. They were very approachable even at that stage and it was indicated that they would much rather have let her go for preservation rather than oblivion. However the commercial pressures being applied by the Greek owners of Pallions were now prevalent. The study had been commissioned at that stage and scrapping seemed inevitable. It was pointless asking for a stay of execution as Pallions had been run ragged with false dawns. One thing is for sure -Pallions apear to have done their best to help.
Ok Peel Ports did not want Manxman-but she had a huge following on Merseyside and the Isle of Man. It all went pear shaped when the 'Manxman Steamship Co' appeal was shut down. Where was plan B?
Well it all came just a little too late with the New 'SOS Manxman Trust' and The Remembrance Line Association of Folkestone. RLA prepared a business plan that would see Manxman plying her trade to the Isle of Man again and seasonally operating Folkestone to Boulogne on a kind of revived 'Golden Arrow' service. Well the offer still stands and the diligent senior members of the new trust are as, I write, pulling out all the stops to find a last ditch solution to the problem.
Maybe the fat lady won't sing...if we lose Manxman it will be a sickening state of affairs as with Lincoln Castle-2010 -a black year for heritage ships...but you never know...

 

Are you sure?

As built, I have Manxmans TPC at around 2400 and the combined Queens @ 4200. Bearing in mind that everyone had a cabin to go to on the Queens - so the comparison is probably unfair. The QM still holds the record for the largest number of passengers carried on/in a single vessel. !6,000 + American soldiers sleeping in shifts.

 

Well Frank-I guess we agree on most things- but Whispering Diesels? The 'T' in TS Manxman stands for Turbine-steam turbine-she is a steamer. Let's stick a diesel engine in Flying Scotsman. Support would fall away in droves. What do you suggest- a steam boiler for the whistle?
I can see where you are coming from I suppose but really this would remove any ship from my list of life's priorities.
You could charge a premium on a genuine steam ship-to keep her running-and people would pay it.

The MV Manxman?...not for me! MV Hegist or Horsa -now you're talking.

Anyway Frank this argument is irrelevant but does have broader implications.-I will call a truce until we know what's going to happen!

 

Austerity,
Thankyou for your focussed post! Could someone please give me contact details for the SOS Manxman team and also Bill Ogle - I would like to call them to see what I can do, and find out - straight from the horses mouth - what is or isn't happening.
Had thought of giving Pallion a bell today.....

Any phone numbers for the above would be appreciated - I found SOS Manxmans site, but no numbers.
Anyone please?

Thanks,

Alan

 

SOS Manxman is the travel correspondent for the Liverpool Echo, Peter Elson. I can't agree with the summary dismissal of the Manxman Steamship company's efforts -they moved heaven and earth but only threw in the towel after the consortium mentioned above left them stranded.

Without a berth and a subsidised one at that, it is impossible for any ship preservation group to have a future. That is when they gave up - when there was no way forward.
I am sure that the members of that group would be only too pleased to see someone succeed, but I can only say that they too are heartilycynicaland sceptical that anyone can do more than they did.

Diesels is but a suggestion in today's world. Of course I would far prefer that the old girl sails serenely and turbine smooth into a secure future, but - where are today'ssteam ticketed engineers, inspectors, insurers etc. We are a dying breed so far as commercial transport goes.

If anyone can do it at this late stage - good luck to them - we certainly do not want another Colin Johnson scenario.

 

Good to to anyone who can save Manxman, I really think this is her last and final chance (if its not already too late).

Credit to Pallion for holding out so long.

Stan

 

Hi,
Decisions about berths are made by a person. If the right kind of pursuading can be done - whatever that may be - then that would be a hurdle jumped. Mayors and Politicans are excellent for that kind of thing.
If you take 'No' for an answer, that's what you'll get. And if that doesn't work, speak to someone else. There IS a key out there.
Alan

 

I suppose this has already been tried, but do you know Frank, whether the Manx Government has been approached re berth/financial support? I would have thought that the old girl would have made/will make! a superb travelling advert for the Isle of Man.

 

Sorry mod and all- god knows why I slipped the words 'put together' in suggesting combinedTPC in-I'd hate to think it was campaign fatigue! Obviously some form of hyperactivity...
By the way Manxman's TPC was actually 2,302!...cheers

 

The island does not have the marketing "bang" to support the vessel. She needs a city location to survive, and if she were operable she could visit any coastal city in the country. What would I give to hear that triple tone echo across Douglas Bay again? (I was talking to somone at Quorn over the weekend who knows where it is too)

And please - if all that is forthcoming is simplistic stuff like "talk to the politicians" don't you think that avenue hasn't already been done to death, time and again.

It has repeatedly - why do you think we are here?

It needs new ideas, new money - lots of it - and new enthusiasm to try to do this at seconds to the final hour.

 

Manxman in a similar role as Rotterdam now- floating hotel and convention centre but ever operational again......Not in anyone's wildest dreams. Oil fired steam turbines. I shudder at the running cost.
I would estimate that to get her back and compliant with SOLAS, you wouldn't get much change out of £10million.

Agree with Frank ref previous efforts. Bill Ogle, Adrian Sweeny and others have gone through the mill many times and came back to the starting point apart from being older and wiser?

Frank- Peel holdings have not fed the Daniel Adamson meere tit bits though. We must remember that originally our agreement and offer of a berth was with MD&HC which is now PEEL PORTS not Peel holdings....two totally different companies in terms of ethos and personnel. We have had nothing more than originally requested back in 2004 apart from an excellent letter of agreement in terms of access, berthing rights and ability to trade as required by HLF. The decision for funding for the open day was made on the spot more or less by Gary Hodgson the MD of Peel Ports.

People all too quickly point the finger at Peel as the villian in all failed ship preservation projects.

A similar discussion is taking place on the Mersey AIS forum regarding the near to sinking "HMS Bronnington". I posted simliar on there, repeated below:

"As most of you know, I am Chairman of the Daniel Adamson Preservation Society and since 2004 it has been a steep learning curve. However a lot of you on here have seen the progress we have/ are making and appreciate what is involved.
Many of you have however hit the nail on the head, that is that any maritime preservation project to stand ANY chance of surviving needs somewhere for their asset to call "Home"- by that I mean that the ship you are saving needs a safe, secure berth. Secondly you HAVE to play by the rules and establish a good relationship with your landlord in order for the relationship to continue.

After all this of course a long term financial plan and financial sustainability is essential. If funds are to be attracted from the likes of the Heritage Lottery fund, a good, robust business plan is essential. HLF no longer throw money down black holes. They have had their fingers burned before and to be honest, there just isn't the money around any more- HLF's budget has been cut drastically over the last couple of years thanks to the Olympics.

The Historic Warship Trust did a superb job under difficult conditions, I visited a couple of times. However - and I know some people on here were active members there, the operation essentially ran at a financial loss. The Trust's former Chairman, the former Tory MP Sir Philip Goodhart almost annually, made considerable financial contributions to the trust to cover the shortfall. In 2003 he donated £27,500 and £32,516 during 2004. Now while Knights in shining armour are of course welcome, you cannot continue on this basis. Sir Philip always stated that at or around his 80th Birthday he would withdraw financial backing and this is what he did.

It was a sad day when the site closed but i would ask people to examine what I have said regarding the finances before blaming the likes of Peel. I fully agree that if any museum would or should be interested in saving say Bronnington, the Imperial War Museum at Salford should surely be the one. Believe me there is Zero chance of NML taking anything like a warship on. Sad but true.

What I can say is that Peel have tried very hard to find new homes for Plymouth especially but other port authority's just don't want them. Since they initially passed onto the Crown after foreclosure, they now lie with Peel Ports and are their problem.

Scrapping is not that simple. Bronnington - well we know what she is built of and she also contains asbestos. Scrap value is VERY low and asbestos removal very expensive.

Plymouth....she is FULL of sprayed on asbestos- the worst their is to remove. By comparison, removing the asbestos off the Daniel Adamson's boiler (13ft Dia) and pipework back in 2006 cost £26,000. Scrapping of Plymouth would actually cost Peel a huge amount of money on top of what any ship recycling firm would get for selling the scrap steel. Big problem.

I don't honestly know what the answer is for these two, I agree that the end should be a lot closer for them to save the pain.

Generally it has been a bad year for maritime preservation. We hear that Manxman is having all her asbestos removed at a reported cost of around £300,000 so surely the end is now nigh for her in order to pay for the asbestos removal.
The PS Lincoln Castle is being ripped apart as I type, despite efforts to save her and then even just the steam engines. http://paddlesteamer...ncolnCastle.htm
PS Ryde looks to be very close to the same fate.

it is all very, very sad. The Bill Ogle's, Adrian Sweeney's, Wally Bennets and other active preservationists have put 110% into their particular projects. We just need a Euro Millions winner to like old ships!

For those of you interested in maritime preservation, a new forum has just been created (not by me I might add) for ALL things to do with maritime preservation from all over the country. See: http://www.heritagemarine.org/ "

I would dearly love to see Manxman remain, there was talk at one time of an American company buying her and converting the old girl to diesel - electric propulsion for the future. Shock horrow- not a turbine steamer....but still here!

Whatever next.....ensure the future of the Waverley.....make her fit for purpose and install a pair of CAT's and rip the steam plant out?

Regards,
Dan

 

This is what happened in Germany - the PS Goethe has been converted to diesel propulsion and is thus a PS no more. She is still paddle driven, of course, so is she now the PD Goethe ?

 

A static role for a complete and intact Manxman would be far better than an active role if she was to be converted to diesel propulsion.

We all want Manxman to survive and I for one have and will do anything I can to help save her as its heart breaking to think we could be so close to loosing her.

Stan

 

Dan
Thankyou for for your informative and (for me) educational post.(Am I deterred re TS Dover? -'course not!) It was sobering to hear from someone who has been through the mangle of Maritime Heritage funding -and survived. I commend you and your team's diligence. However, realism doesn't inspire. A workable, imaginative scheme does...and it follows that's just what you've got with DAS.

Time is short with Strathclyde University engaged for the scrapping study and asbestos stripping now probably completed-but the Manxman supporters are doing what they can-good luck guys!

 

It might be worth asking Peel for a berth in the disused sections of Liverpool docks for a fixed term of say 5 years & with no public access. They might be more amenable to this.

Bob.

 

There was an outcry in Germany about the proposed conversion of the PS Goethe to diesel power, but KD went ahead and did it all the same. I don't know whether the steam equipment still exists, or whether it has been scrapped. I would like to think that it could be re-converted back to steam again one day if circumstances permit.

The PS Montreux on Lac Léman (Lake Geneva) was built as a paddle steamer but converted to diesel power in 1962. However, in 2001 she was converted back to steam again, so it can be done!

I haven't got a picture of the Montreux, but here's another of the Lac Léman paddle steamers, the PS Simplon :



Click on the picture to enlarge it.

 

Austerity

It is often said that it is better that a man be silent and be thought a fool than to open his mouth and confirm it. The Manxman S S Co were beaten off by hostility from the very official bodies that you now think are going to come riding to the rescue. I have already named them

If you and your colleagues can do better - then prove me wrong - but those people have been through the mill, know how much campaigning takes in both cash and personal effort as unpaid volunteers, and how much signed committed assistance from officialdom must be in place before anything meaningful is set in train. Ill informed comments such as that above can not engender any confidence in your ability to do better. If you want to get into goodbye house and relationships territory its all too easy.

Success was moving further and further away from them as time progressed and most certainly was not almost within their grasp. That is why they gave up.

If you are to convert the unbelievers, then you must be able to convince people like me who are starting out on your side at the very outset. Semi political knocking of personalities doesn't do it

 

Frank
I've been through the mill too-but point taken.