Manx Northern Railway Cleminson Coaches

To put it context what I am suggesting is if the body of N41 needs such an extent of work upon it that it would virtually be a newbuild to make it run, then we take the chassis of N42 (if that needs virtual replacement and Robert is agreeable), tie it up with the body of N41 which is returned to a similar state either as built or prior to the mess hut stage, it may be possible to aquire a wheel set of a cleminson if they are beyond running use, then build a replica. So we conserve N42's chassis, N41's body as best as possible in a state of arrested decay with some small amount of work to return it to a state it would have been as a functional coach (eg replace seats, partitions, windows) all of which would be minor none structural work not majorly affecting the actual original fabric of the coach, then using the knowledge gained from N42 and N41 plus possibly even the other Cleminson on Island (if the owner is agreeable) producing a replica. If the various Cleminson owners and projects can be co-ordinated together then costs could be kept down with job lots on the necessary parts.

In effect N41 then become a 'hybrid' representing as best as possible a representative of a Cleminson as built with original parts - , whilst the replica for running carries all of the appearance but doesn not have to worry about compromising the fabric of the original and could use cheaper sympathetic modern alternatives. The way I percive it beyond some transport, some material and some of the stabilisation costs N41 does not have to cost that much if all parties can be persuaded to work together, therefore the bulk of the cost would be for the replica... Of course the next step would be to find out where N41/2 could be safely housed preferably on Island which is where Robert said he had his problems... Though at least being an Island resident I carry 'some' political clout and MHK's aren't too difficult to get hold of on Island!.... There are potentials as there is a heritage scheme at Ballaugh involving a degree of reconstruction of the Freight side of the station, though some sort of protection would be needed as the goods shed is too small (perhaps a huge perspex or glass display case? - maybe get an on Island window firm to sponsor this part of the project?). Or perhaps even a site in Ramsey near the MNR station (again with a large 'display case)....

Does that make more sense now?

 

OK, explained like that there is essentially little difference between what you are calling "restoration" and what I am calling "conservation".

Tom

 

To me conservation would suggest just leaving as is and arresting deterioration. So technically if you were conserving N41 you would stop it decaying futher, possibly strengthen it, and display it as body only. Whereas restoration could include uniting with other parts sympathetically sourced to give a more complete display model. Restoration to Running condition would be quite another matter and as I have suggested it may well be that a replica is a better option than starting to remove large parts of the original and substituting different materials.

Still is there really too much point in splitting hairs about what words you use to describe what?....

 

I'll throw a discordant note in here and say that, to me, the idea of displaying the unrestored remains of two coaches cobbled together and building a replica as well is a daft one. A bit like the scheme to build a working B17 and a non-working one - almost twice the work for very little gain. It sounds to me as though there's no appetite from the operators of the IoM Railway for a usable example and so I'd focus on a full museum standard restoration of what you have (as seems to have just been done with Met 353, which I think has been restored from "garden shed" condition by the LT Museum (they paid for it!)) and accept that it never going to run. By all means use the scrap chassis, but restore the body properly. Keep samples of what you replace in particular anything with a full range of layers of paint. Anthony Coulls is probably going to read this and he'll be able to give you specialist advice or put you in touch with others who can.

When you have finished this restoration you'll have all the knowledge to build a replica should you still wish to, but you'll also have a clearer idea of the effort and costs involved!

 

It may seem to you like there's no appetite from the IMR for a Cleminson in workable condition, but until the suggestion has been fully discussed with them with a good business plan then we can't be certain, especially with the MNR's 150th coming up in 2029 when a change of management may have happened anyway. It may be "twice the work" (possibly) but if the costs can be kept down then that's more important than saving a few hours if you can sell it to your project team. I think a running coach is probably of more use to the IMR, so it may be that the running coach ends up being based on the IMR and the original goes to (for example) the site being established at Ballaugh.

Then there's always a possibility of an outlier site, I would love to see some sort of running line set up between (lets say for starters Kirk Micheal and Sulby Bridge, moving onto Milntown in time with an eventual aim of Ramsey), but that's a long way off, and if on the Northern Lines then some sort of functioning MNR 'outline' stock is definitely of value. Certainly it seems to me that really the Island needs an outlying railway site (perhaps in conjunction with the transport museum) so at risk items can be expediently removed from railway property to an on Island site, which according to Robert the lack of was the reason for choosing to remove N42 from the Island. There's another item of more modern stock which a preservation bid is being launched for and this too would have to move off the railways ASAP and so will require a home too. So definitely either a None Government or a semi autonomous site might be of value.

Now if things changed and all parties are agreeable then yes there may be a very distant possibility that N42 eventually makes its way back her too (somehow I am sceptical and think like Polar Bear at Amberely it will remain at Southwold with no desire to repatriate it except for the odd one off), but until then a running replica on Island should be what we're aiming for as it's running stock is what captures the public imagination (who are after all who really pays for the IMR and not your average enthusiast who visits once in a blue moon and probably hasn't been over since the year of the railways in the 90's).....

I don't know much about the scheme to build a working and a non working B17 but I would guess they were both newbuild schemes, whereas I am talking about a newbuild scheme for running, plus conserving the various authentic bits from various other coaches, not fit for running rather than just dumping them in a skip or hiding them in the corner of a museum. So it's not really a valid comparison. The aim is to have a functioning cleminson and with at least three schemes at various stages to get running Cleminsons in the long term (if they can all be co-oridinated to work together) that means there's likely to be a cascade of unfit for service bits which could have a safe home on a non running restoration rather than either be scattered around or disposed of. That sounds sensible enough to me, if not to yourself....

Anyway we're all talking hypotethetically, it may be that survey reveals N41 is in fit enough condition to be restored on a new underframe to running condition.

 

Do you think that there is a sustainable market for an outlying operating railway preservation scheme based on the Northern Lines?
I had a very pleasant long weekend nerding about with a friend (who is ex-manx) a couple of years ago but given the wealth of existing railway attractions, I wonder if yet another is going to stretch the interest just a bit too far for both visitors from the mainland and potential volunteers. After seeing most of the lines, even I struggled to find enough interest to visit them all in a few days, and I'm quite extreme in my pursuit of the narrower gauges. Most visitors (vast majority over 45, from NW England) will probably have their fill with the existing network, and there's certainly no business-viable commuter requirement for a railway in that kind of semi-rural and rural geography. (There really isn't).

I can't help thinking that better dialogue and working with the existing railway companies rather than against them, would be more practical. The Island is small, there aren't THAT many people living on it or visiting it, and in-fights are just going to divide rather than conquer. I'll probably be shot down for naively not knowing the intricacies of the operating or political situation, etc etc etc, but from an outsider's POV it looks to me as if more collaboration and mediation is needed, rather than parochial splintering.

I've grown weary of wading through 17 pages of comments about a Cleminson coach or two, but I wonder if perhaps the best way forward is to just get on with some practical restoration, private discussions and fundraising where necessary, rather than splitting the hairs over specifics. There are a lot of "what ifs" and "might happens" in the last few posts; rather than all this airing of debate in a very public way, perhaps interested parties could work out what they could achieve offline, and then once that's been decided, let everyone know what they plan to do. If they feel like it.

 

Anyway we're all talking hypotethetically, it may be that survey reveals N41 is in fit enough condition to be restored on a new underframe to running condition.

It's a timber body, of course it's restorable, it's just that there may not be much left at the end! Look at the L & B rebuilds. And I don't see anything wrong with that - if you use the same wood and joints it's just a heavy repair particularly if you don't cut corners. If it were me undertaking the work I'd restore the original body as a potential runner and forget about replicas - but that's only my advice as a restorer of wooden bodied carriages for the last 25 years!

 

Once again, I would agree with most of 61624's conclusions. Trying to pull things together, I suggest that Allan needs to set up a flow chart.

A) Negotiate with the DCCL, and given how the current management treated us, and is giving the IOMSRSA the run around over diesel No 17, what should be simple may well be mission impossible! Given the way we had been blackmailed, we could not frankly justify throwing good money after bad with any project involving people who tear up a signed agreement, but if Allan goes into this project knowing what could happen to him, he at least is forewarned. Whether potential sponsors will want to take a risk is another matter. As any grant aid usually requires a secure future for the vehicle, I think he needs a long-term agreement of 20 or more years.

B) While negotiations are dragging on, he needs permission to go on site and get a proper survey done and that means from someone who understands what they are doing. I have been involved with preservation all my adult life, and of necessity have had to learn a great deal, but I still regard myself as an amateur. Allan needs good advice from people who have experience in this field.

C) The report will show what state the coach is in. In theory no coach is beyond restoration even if it is just a matter of bolting a grab handle on to an otherwise new build! In reality there is a point at which commonsense sets in. The IOW 4-w Coaches are far more potent in showing people what Victorian carriages were like than something that is in a museum. Most people who go to York look at the steam engines and if they bother to visit the coach exhibits look at the royal trains and the rest is only of interest to a few dedicated enthusiasts. That sounds heretical but it is so.

D) The idea that there is a ‘sacred state’ and we preserve it in that state is absurd. What if someone has sprayed obscene graffiti on it. That is its historic state, so should we deface their work of art? A few special saloons that hardly ever ran may be ‘original’ but a working coach changes so the Holy Grail of ‘an original coach’ is pie in the sky. If a piece of wood on an 1879 coach was replaced in 2012, in 1952 or 1902 it does not matter. It is no more original or ‘un-original’. If it is capable of being rebuilt it is worth doing so.

E) As these steps are progressing, Allan needs to build a team and raise funds. Having raised in the order of £100K over the years, I know a little about this, and whilst my efforts must go to our own coach, I will be happy to offer any advice I can, but I do not want to be a part of the team as I have my own job to do.

F) He needs to find somewhere for volunteer work and that has to be well equipped as I previously posted, or he needs a commercial restorer.

G) He needs to present a grant application with independent quotes, evidence of his funding input, evidence of secure long term security for the vehicle and then pray hard. Excellent projects can and do get turned down.

H) Then comes the easy bit! You rebuild it.

The economies of scale are not as great as Allan thinks. The coaches are scattered geographically. The timescale when they can be worked on differs, and unless one contractor handles ALL of them at the same time, there are few economies of scale in reality.

I agree with 61624 that the time to think about a replica is after you have dealt with the existing one. With £30K already set aside for our coach, and more funds available, with the running units, and without the nightmare of negotiating with the DCCL, I have a much easier task with our coach than Allan does. The reason I have not suggested to our board that we take on the second Cleminson is that I do not want to overstretch our resources. I strongly suggest he takes it one at a time.

This is long but I have tried to put together a workable flow chart that sets out goals and needs.

Robert H

 

Yes I could not agree more.

The economic case for restoring the Peel line as a commuter route is fantasy world, and the Groudle and Laxey Mines Railway projects have barely enough volunteers as it is. I knew and travelled on the Ramsey line and to me it was by a massive margin my favourite, but the economic case for saving it did not exist in 1974 when the Island had a thriving tourist industry. Manx tourism has virtually collapsed save for the TT and the worry is that Tynwald may ask why they are spending so much public money for so few visitors. Health care, provision for the elderly and education must score more heavily with most voters than trains, so a preservation scheme if it did get off the ground could provide a heaven sent opportunity to close the Port Erin line. Why waste the taxpayer’s money if volunteers will do the job?

In realistic terms the most that could be done would be a few hundred yards of track, but what can you run on it? When we had our three steam locos it was a possibility. That is now a dead duck. The DCCL will not sell the diesel loco No 17, as they are scared that the IOMSRSA may be able to repair it for a few hundred pounds and discredit their claims it is beyond economic repair, so that is out. A replica MNR Sharp Stewart 2-4-0T would cost at least £300,000 and probably closer to £450,000, and there is just not that sort of money available to Manx preservation.

I started this thread to give news about our coach and to try to kick start a scheme to save the DCCL coach. Allan has shown interest and I admire him for that, and if he has thrown stones at me, so what. A number of people have just thrown stones and want to split hairs over conservation, restoration, original and so on. The important thing is to SAVE the coach and if Allan can do that then good luck to the guy! I hope he succeeds, but even if he fails, I still respect him for trying and that is more than I could say for the stone throwers. Allan wants to do something. Please help him.

Robert H

 

I was told,yesterday,that the Cleminson is still outside at Southwold. Perhaps someone who lives in that neck of the woods can confirm this. A simple yes/no answer would be sufficient and greatly appreciated. Ray.

 

Welcome back! I assumed it would not be long after your third 'I'm out' comment that you had another go! I am presently well on the way to getting a Group/Forum set up. This will include numerous photos of the coach and a 7 page illustrated initial condition survey etc. I am also hoping to obtain a photo of the storage situation at Southwold. It has been described to me, but as you never accept anything i say, I would prefer to have a photo, so you will have no opportunity to argue. The conditions are far better than what the DCCL intended to do with it.

As soon as the forum is ready to go public, I shall publish details here and we intend to load a great many more photos as soon as time permits. Out of five potential restorers, three have responded expressing definite interest.

One has asked many detailed questions as to what materials we wish to use, standards and so on. Whilst the PR side with the forum is important, I would prefer to direct time to drafting a detailed specification, as that is rather more useful for the coach. Until we have a detailed specification, we cannot place a contract. As soon as that is accomplished we can move the coach to our preferred contractor and start work.

I shortly hope to provide a photo on our forum before long.

Robert H

 

Oh dear! It's a return of the monthly instalment of "pull the Hendry tail". Marshall 5 please lay off and Robert H. please ignore these things or, at least, be less prolix in your replies. Such wordiness does your cause no good.

PH

 

Robert,
I asked a perfectly reasonable question and a simple yes or no would have sufficed.
I take it,from your post, that it is a YES the Cleminson is still outside.

By the way as you chose to chastise me for not "getting my facts right" I have never used the words "I'm out" (ref your line1) in any of my posts. Ray.

 

Paul,it was a perfectly reasonable question in view of Mr. Hendry's repeated condemnation of the DCCL for simply threatening to put the coach outside. Surely it would have been better for this valuable vehicle to have been left where it was until the IOMR&TPS had secure undercover accomodation for it. That's all that I was getting at. Sorry if it offends but you don't have to read my posts. Regards Ray.

 

My experience of this forum is a number of people who have sent in private messages who have been of incalculable help to us and a small number of public posts that have been invaluable. Set against that is a swamp of unpleasantness from the "Black Hole of Mann" devotees who would rather something was wrecked by vandals, burnt or rotted on the Island, than was appreciated elsewhere. They do not have the good of the coach at heart, just malice at our society for saving it off the Island.

Allan Thompson was critical, but said he would like to save the DCCL Cleminson. He has taken on a formidable task and I respect him enormously for that. I will do whatever I can to help him, as saving the coach is more important than hard words. As for the rest, I would say "If you want anyone to believe you care about preservation or the Cleminson coaches of the MNR, help Allan, rather than indulging in semantics with him, or throwing stones at me"

It s often said that the best thing to do is to ignore someone who has contributed nothing helpful to the debate, but the downside of that is that it encourages such people if they have a free target. I do not think that is in the interest of the internet community.

As soon as I have a good photo of the storage arrangements, it will go on our Group site, which I am testing at present, which will include a photo report, a 7-page structural review, a Society prospectus and a downloadable Associate application form.

 

From the precisely targeted nature of your initial attack, I assume you know the situation as well or better than I do, as I do not yet have a photo. Steps have been taken to protect the coach from the weather and it is in a secure locked area. I have a verbal description of what has been done, but your latest post shows that any excuse will be seized upon to rubbish me. If I make a tiny error in reporting a verbal description it will be used to discredit me. I am not going to fall into that trap! When I have a photo it will go on the Group Site we are setting up.

As to I'm out, the precise details were 'nuff said" twice and 'I refuse to be drawn into them any further.' .I used 'I'm out' so two descriptive words could convey the meaning of thirteen. If I had said "nuff said" three times that would have been incorrect, so I conveyed the meaning. In dealing with your taunts in future it means 13 words will be needed rather than two, but so be it.

If you genuinely care about the Cleminson coaches of the MNR, rather than attacking us, how about helping Allan Thompson. I have a fantastic team and many loyal members and there is a reply to go into the post later today to a gentleman who sent in a £50 donation. I am very lucky, but Allan does not have a team to back him yet. We also have over £30,000 in reserve to start work on the coach.

Allan has taken on a formidable task. You are on the island and with your great experience of preservation, you could be of immense help to him. How about doing something useful? Your stones are NOT going to derail the restoration of our coach, but you could help Allan. IF you get that coach restored before we get ours restored I will be delighted and I will gladly stand you a drink as two coaches will have been restored. I pray that Allan will succeed but are you going to help him or just throw stones at me?

Robert H

 

The DCCL proposed to dump the coach outdoors at Port St Mary station, which is an unsecure site as it is open to the public and unmanned at night and did suffer from vandalism this year, so we were confronted with dumping after 7 October. As a 'friendly' gesture the DCCL later changed dumping outdoors to outright REMOVAL from DCCL property, so we did not even have dumping as an option. The coach had to be REMOVED from DCCL property by early October so we had NO CHOICE.

Now how about condemning the DCCL for threatening to dump this "valuable vehicle" as you call it, outside, and condemning them twice as hard for ordering its removal from DCCL property, or is that too much to hope for!


We had looked for covered storage on the Island where we could store our coach the previous year without success. Therefore we needed to relocate it off the Island and that took over two months of the tight six month window to achieve. Negotiating a new home took time and we were working against the clock. I arrived at Southwold about an hour before the coach was due and the area where it was to be unloaded was being cleared as I arrived.

Ideally I would have preferred a year or more, and with that time, the coach could have been transported DIRECT to the restorers, saving the society thousands of pounds in a double haulage bill. All you do is throw stones. I had to knowingly incur the first of TWO major transport bills thanks to the malice of the DCCL.

We provided the only really good boiler the railway had had in 30 years on loan to Sutherland for free and then gave them TWO extensions. They made sure we had to pay two haulage bills. They are such a grateful lot!

We had no choice but to do as we have if we were to save the coach we had saved almost 40 years ago.

Robert H

 

Firstly,Robert no "targetted attack" was intended. Strange as it may seem to you but I did not know the situation at Southwold -that was the reason for my asking the question. I had assumed that you had arranged covered accommodation for the Cleminson before moving it.
As regards the DCCL coach it seems to be forgotten that it still belongs to them and they can,ultimately,do whatever they want with it irrespective of our wishes.
It has also been assumed that Allan has actually taken on the task of this coach but I am not aware of anything "concrete" happening. As it happens, I requested that the IOMSRSA puts pressure on the DCCL to move N41 back inside and at a recent IOMSRSA meeting it was decided to request the purchase of a tarp. to protect it pro tem. Ray.

 

Can I suggest that we take Robert Hendry at face value and assume that he is going to spend the £30,000 on the coach. By all means condemn him if nothing happens, but if it does he should receive only praise, after all the coach left the IoM on a low loader it could easily return if made welcome. The important point is that it be restored, regardless of location for the time being, and his critics have the opportunity with the coach still in DCCL possession to prove how easy they are to deal with, secure it and restore it as an alternative to stay on the island. Until there are major developments to report by either party I'd suggest that further postings are not worth making!

 

With adequate time, I would have done the logical thing of moving the coach direct to the restorers, as it makes no sense to incur two haulage bills and needlessly waste thousands of pounds of the members' money. I did not have that time. I had a deadline that the coach was to be dumped six months after the loco agreement came into force (7 April) and soon after that, dumping was changed to outright removal.

We found no acceptable home on the Island so off Island was the only realistic choice, and because of the nightmare timescale, it was a race against the clock. Crane hire would take several days to arrange and when they inspected the coach the crane operators said that in their opinion some special lifting beams were required which would add almost £1,000 to the bill and take some days to fabricate. As it happened 7 October, the day the deadline expired was a Sunday, so the coach was moved on the morning of the next working day, Monday 8 October.

As you say the DCCL Cleminson belongs to them, and that is another problem Allan will have to face if he is to do anything. They can let it rot if they wish, just as they are destroying the character of Laxey station and just as they plan a ludicrous piazza at Port Erin. When the present regime is merely an unhappy memory, whoever takes over the railways will inherit lines that has had their character wilfully destroyed. To me, it is heartbreaking and emphasizes the need I put forward in the 1980s for a legally binding conservation study as applied to the San Francisco cable cars or the Cumbres & Toltec section of the Rio Grande.

A voluntary code was agreed a few years ago and torn up a short time later, so was worthless. In the States they have prevented irresponsible managements harming national treasures. That was what we needed in the IOM. Think of Derby Castle depot. The interior needed work but the old frontage had character and now we have an industrial unit with no character. Laxey station is being reworked despite over 100 years of successful use.
What else will this regime come up with to harm the railway, but as you so rightly say they can do as they like.

I believe Allan cares. I do not know if he can succeed. but if I can help him I will. Logically the coach could be transferred to some sort of Charitable trust for free. That means it is no longer a liability to the taxpayer. It can be restored on the Island, but why don't we ALL back Allan. Despite the DCCL. maybe we can save that coach.

If we, as a society, could take it on, we would do so, but it would stretch our resources too far, so other people need to pull their weight for once and DO something and not just carp. The IOMSRSA have far more members than we do, and are an existing body. Why not transfer the coach to the IOMSRSA and let them restore it? I am sure Allan would back that. I am backing Allan because he is the only person who seems to share my desire to see this coach restored, but if you took it on, the offer I made to Allan, that I will give you any help I can is there. If there is a chance to save the coach, hard words are so much water under the bridge.

I called this thread Cleminson Coaches for a reason. We WILL restore our coach but there is another one that is at risk. I want to see that one saved and as the DCCL prefers to throw money around on destroying the railway heritage, as at Laxey, we can write them off as useless. We as enthusiasts need to get in there, get the coach and restore it.

How about joining in to save it rather than just throwing stones?

Robert H