Manx Northern Railway Cleminson Coaches

The Cleminson coach has been installed in a scaffolding frame with a corrugated perspex type roof and weather resistant side sheeting, and unlike the coaches stored by the DCCL at Port St Mary, which have been tarpaulined straight on top of the body (which causes severe condensation), our coach has room to breath.

I know from first hand experience the deleterious effect of medium to long term storage of an item that has been sheeted with no room to breath, so I was anxious that this was avoided. I may say that the Southwold Trust handled the weather protection in a very professional manner, and I am entirely satisfied with that aspect of things. During the storage in Douglas, a number of bolts had been slackened for no rational reason and four windows had been broken, and when the coach arrived at Glasson Dock, the manager of the hauliers and I had the unpleasant necessity of removing fragments of broken glass, lest these fall out during the road journey when they might injure someone.

It was depressing to have to smash glass, but as it was already cracked or broken which suggests very little care, it was not usable, and in any case we had taken a decision that for public service whatever 'grandfather rights' we might be able to claim, that modern safety glass was essential.

The chopper hook had also 'walked' at some time, and is an item we will need to replace, but in the overall size of the project, the glass and the chopper hardly signify. The SRT folks have swept out the interior, removing the broken glass that we had to leave lying on the floor and the dirt and debris that had built up since the coach was on display in the 1990s.

We have identified four potential contractors who have facilities to do the initial heavy and sophisticated work that would be beyond the resources of volunteers unless they have a major workshop at their disposal. As I have said before, Phase One needs to be restoration of the chassis. One solebar must be renewed and my view is that the second solebar would not last long in service IF it could be saved, so it will be more cost efficient to replace. This is one of the 'maybe ifs' of preservation. Do you make a thorough job today at £x or save a bit today and replace more in two or three years at much greater cost and disruption.

Phase Two will be bodywork repairs and the situation here is interesting. Many of the Cleminson coaches had many missing panels by the early 1970s, and I had assumed they had rotted and fallen off, which would suggest that the body pillars were rotting. A detailed study of dozens of photos shows panels present and square or missing and no panels sagging or falling away. This suggests deliberate removal by someone, presumably as a source of wood, and this pattern is repeated from coach to coach. The panels on N42 are a mixture of 1970s replacement ply for missing panels, and teak and mahogany. This in itself was a surprise but historically makes sense, but means we have a patchwork quilt so restoration to varnished finish would not be practicable with differing types of wood. The floor will require substantial replacement as there is evidence of rot here (wet rot thankfully not dry rot) and it is likely that most if not all the roof timbers and roof sticks will require replacement. Once again it is the question of where does one say a wooden component is 'good enough'. In my opinion we might be able to save a few floor planks but is it cost effective or rational? I shall be guided by the opinions of the professionals in this.

I had expected the survey stage would take us until the Spring and we now know enough to draft specifications for the work we want doing and to seek tenders. We also have a good deal of knowledge on what to rule out in the specification. As Allan says, Southwold suffered a set-back, with the rejection of the planning application on a NIMBY backlash, one of the complaints being that High Speed Trains would be passing through Wenhaston at 125 mph every few minutes! I am not 100% certain I would volunteer to travel in an MNR Cleminson at 125 mph but there you are!!!

SRT has lodged an appeal and have submitted a new scaled down application, but as anyone with experience of the planning system knows, these things take months to grind through the system. SRT have bought the Wenhaston site so have no intention of crawling into a hole and dying, but from various sources, our ability to secure a grant is dependent on a long term future user arrangement for the coach. We cannot reasonably ask SRT for that until they have planning permission, for however sensible their plans are, that does not guarantee acceptance by planners! In the longterm I am 100% confident that the project will progress in some form, but I do not intend to say more at present.

We have to bide our time, but the dip in our funds, caused by spending something like £7,000 on transport to Southwold, has been more than recouped, so without any grants of any sort we could commission works costing well in excess of £30,000 tomorrow, but it makes more sense to go through the grant process for two reasons (a) It makes your funds go further and (b) The Grant application is quite rigorous so you need to think everything through, and any sloppy thought is likely to be detected. I think we have it tied up, but if you have to prove it, all to the good!

Moving on to Ballaugh, to answer that point, I have been aware of the Ballaugh project from very early on, and we discussed the possibility of making the coach available to Ballaugh. We had a friendly and very useful exchange of emails with the trustees of the Ballaugh project, but when the Ballaugh folks measured up the goods shed interior, they said it was a couple of feet too short to accommodate the coach. This came as a disappointment and a surprise to me, but as we could hardly chop two feet off one end of the coach, or extend the goods shed, that was the end of what would have been a possible solution. Had painful facts of dimensions not affected us, it is one I would have been happy with, as it was on the course of the MNR, and the goods shed would have been a secure covered venue.

As far as anxiety over coaches goes I would say that the state of the coaches dumped at Port St Mary should be a far greater concern, as they are direct sheeted and I have seen the effects on condensation on items stored in that way. It is fine for a few weeks but guarantees rot if it is extended for several years. Since the government take-over coach after coach has rotted away and I do worry. If a scaffolding structure was erected to protect them, I would be a lot happier. Maybe Allan would like to campaign on that issue to protect the group of coaches at Port St Mary.

Robert Hendry

 

Further to my reply, I failed to say that the scaffolding framework around the coach and the covering was erected within a few days of the Cleminson being unloaded at Southwold, so the coach was not lying out in the rain to be a cause for anxiety for months as might be implied from reading the question.

I have been sent photos of the structure, which also covers the SRT Belgian trailer, and am impressed.

Robert Hendry

 

Thankyou for that informative update Robert. I think that there are long term plans for the site at Port St Mary so a close eye will have to be kept on all the stock there, and I know individuals who have plans for the items. It is also useful to have some sort of timescale idea of how the cleminson restoration should progress.

It's a shame that consideration wasn't given to building a small sympathetic wooden extension onto the goodshed at Ballaugh to enable the coach to fit within it, I'm sure the £7,000 spent on transportation off the Island could have been more constructively used elsewhere and thereby allowing an item of Manx transport history to be preserved in the Island it belongs to, in the North where it belongs as opposed to being in the South of England in a struggling site. Indeed given the relative difference in crime rate in the UK to that in the Island, one is hopeful that a plastic sheet provides enough security to prevent vandalism or a theft of parts. Hopefully the exile will not be permanent and in due course with better circumstances the coach will return to the place where it really belongs and is more relevant.

I notice the IOMRTPS has changed its name to the Three Foot Gauge Railway Society, does this mean the society intends to sever its connection with the Island? If so it's a shame as I've certainly on many occasions looked into joining, but never been able to get to the bottom of how exactly to go about doing so, and would have liked the opportunity to join a society holding many of the Island's transport assets to do something about actually restoring them and displaying them on the Island. It's a pity as if there was a dynamic amount of on Island membership, getting funding from and applying pressure to the Isle of Man government would have been a lot easier.

 

"Further to my reply, I failed to say that the scaffolding framework around the coach and the covering was erected within a few days of the Cleminson being unloaded at Southwold, so the coach was not lying out in the rain to be a cause for anxiety for months as might be implied from reading the question.

I have been sent photos of the structure, which also covers the SRT Belgian trailer, and am impressed.

Robert Hendry "

The implication was from the Southwold Railway blog itself. It made mention of the fact the items had arrived in the October, with relative silence, until the mention in the February that a tent like structure had been erected. With little else other than the blog to inform us of what was actually happening with the coach, naturally given the several month gap inbetween the posting about the arrival and the posting about the tent structure being erected and with no other source of information of course those of us on Island would be concerned. Furthermore the comments about the coach being wet - given that it was stored inside on the Island, as I've shown in a dry modern permanent shed, the references to a "much needed opportunity to dry out" seems to imply that the SR was attempting to suggest the coach had been left outside on the Island (which it hadn't), and to those of us who were on the Island and therefore in a position to know it was stored indoors, that therefore it must have remained outside for a considerable amount of time after arrival in Southwold. It is good to hear you say this wasn't the case, but it does beg the question why exactly does the tent give the coach "a much needed chance to dry out"? When exactly did it get so wet that it required a "much needed chance to dry out"?

 

Going on to the security issue over the Cleminson coach, the vehicle is in a secure builders yard which is locked at night, and there must be many thousands of pounds of pilferable materials in a builders yard, so security will obviously be a matter of relevance to the builders, as well as to SRT and ourselves. For obvious reasons, it would not be helpful for me to discuss such matters in detail, any more than one gives out passwords on the internet, etc.

I confess I had NOT considered suggesting an extension to the goods shed to the good folks at Ballaugh, as I think that it is better to leave structures in their historic form if you can. Douglas, Port Soderick, Ballasalla, Castletown, Colby and Port St Mary stations have all been sadly messed about in my life and there seem to be mad plans afoot to mess up Port Erin as well. The only station that is substantially unaltered is Santon which was due to the intervention of the original IOM Railway Society in the early 1980s. It is good to see Ballaugh have a heritage role, but I hope it will be altered as little as possible, though I confess an extension might have been convenient for us, but that is the usual excuse for hacking things about. Convenient - Yes ; Heritage - So what! I do not agree with that sentiment.

The Isle of Man Railway & Tramway Society Ltd has changed its title to Three Foot Gauge Railway Society Ltd, as it was felt that the old title no longer reflected the breadth of the society's geographical interests adequately. I wondered if there would be a sentimental longing to retain IOM in the title although this might adversely affect securing grants on the mainland, but the venomous behaviour by the DCCL had so disgusted our members that the resolution was carried unanimously. The Island as such is not to blame as it is and remains a wonderful place, and I am confident that when the present regime is just an unpleasant memory that we will be able to work with their successors.

As to the coach needing to dry out, the number of broken windows and the missing chopper do not suggest especially careful storage after the Department opted to remove it from display at Port Erin. Buildings can leak and in the IOM, being in close proximity to the sea, the atmosphere is notoriously damp. MER trams require a 'drying out' process at the start of the summer for the electrical circuits, so I assume that it is not just those components that absorb moisture in winter, and that is after a single winter of disuse. I recall seeing mildew on the coach seats of some of the disused coaches at St John's in the carriage shed in the 1970s, which could be brushed away with a hand but suggests a damp environment. For some time, the coach was in the carriage shed at Douglas which is not heated, so to suggest a heated environment is only partially correct. My guess is that it was a long term slow process from when the Department decided they did not want a unique vehicle on display for the benefit of the Island. We did not have regular access to it for many years, and when I did, I had more significant issues to examine. The solebar, when I inspected it in 2012 was in much poorer condition than it had been when on display at Port Erin, so significant deterioration had arisen between 1995 and 2012, but other than suggesting a malignant 'Buggane'. which is an unpleasant Manx "Fairy" for those not familiar with Manx folklore, I am unable to advance an explanation as to the deterioration that was apparent to me, and was one reason why I felt we needed a new approach.

SRT, going from their inspection, seem to have the same impression as I formed and have created an environment where it seems to be progressing satisfactorily.

As to 'where it belongs', I think I am correct that a variety of Stanier 8Fs and Riddles MOS engines have been repatriated from overseas, as have other historic items of stock, and I do not hear arguments that they do not belong!
Should virtually all the stock on the Welshpool be sent away as it does not belong?

If we had not preserved the Cleminson in 1975, the Island would have shown such a touching concern for it that it would have been burnt! Maybe if one has to be pedantic, we can say it is a rare example of Welsh coach building from Swansea, so Wales has a particularly strong claim! Maybe there should be a strong Welsh lobby demanding repatriation of both MNR Cleminson coaches to the land of their birth as the DCCL example still seems to be at risk.
Having a trace of Welsh ancestry, albeit a long time ago, I could sympathise with that, but survival is what matters.
A lot of the funding for the MNR came from England, the railway was in the IOM, and the coach was built in Wales so there is endless scope for "we should have it, no its ours" debates which are a waste of time.

Robert Hendry

 

Actually to correct you but N42 was not stored in the carriage shed, it was stored both in the paint shop and later in the very modern shed built to fill in the open area which previously existed between the Running sheds, the blacksmith shop, large water tank and the woodworkers and painters shop (which is where it was pictured in the IOMSRSA website). The locations were both clean, warm and dry as one might expect in an area where wood is stored and paint is used and people often work. To my knowledge the Cleminson has never been stored in either the old or new carriage shed, or outdoors at any point since it left St Johns on the Isle of Man. That you appear unaware of this seems to me to show the lack of interest the society showed to its assets on Island, until it wanted to throw its toys out of the pram about the railway taking a proper recompense for the years of free storage you had from it with little constructive in return, only a lengthy petty legal squabble making lawyers a small fortune but doing little to do anything useful with the assets you held on Island.

I don't think you can compare events of some fourty ago to what would happen now. As you should know there are some four complete cleminsons in existence (without counting the chassieless one in Douglas), - N42, supposedly some two in the Phyllis Rampton (perhaps given their close links with the Welsh Narrow Gauge Steam who seem to be the only area to benefit from the considerable collection the Rampton trust might consider lending one of theirs if there is a (hitherto silent) Welsh lobby calling for a Cleminson coach? Plus N45 the only remaining complete cleminson on the Island.

As regards N41, but it has had restoration work undertaken on it to ensure its longevity so is no longer at risk. And I can verify that N45 has had some maintenance work carried out upon it.

As for the significant alterations to Douglas, did this not take place in the time of Bill Jackson, the same manager who you sometimes speak of in glowing terms who demolished the stable canopies at Douglas, cleared the Port Erin Platform and the goods shed to provide bus accommodation, cut up No2's Chassis and who sold you 5, 7 (which he would have had cut up if you had not approached him about buying it), 8 & 9 (despite the supporters movement raising substantial amounts of funds in order to restore 9 to steam) plus several items of MER stock? Similarly the same manager undertook plenty of character changing work at Port Erin (ripping out the bay platform trackwork to park buses), disconnected the goods sheds at Castletown and Port St Mary, letting them out, allowed the railway station at Port St Mary to deteriorate to such a state it became unusable, undertook the pointless massive charterchanging rebuild on Hutchinson (to Thomas the Tank engine appearance including the blue livery), and permitted Ballasalla to be demolished and replaced with an out of keeping station? The same manager who decided to alienate the local supporters organisation (who had undertaken unpaid work on the railways to keep them running to a point that the government took over) because it dared to criticise his approach. The same manager infact who at one point looked as it he was going to dispose of the whole Douglas station site at the first available opportunity.

The Stanier 8F's and Riddles locomotives are obviously unwanted in the countries they resided in, unlike the Cleminson and No7 which you were approached by a the supporters about selling, as well as myself. It is a bit rich to make the comparison, given that a lot of the stock you've owned has sat on the Island having little done with it, other than being stored at the taxpayers expense (hence recent developments).

Ultimately if you are serious about doing something with the assets you have on the Isle of Man and your passion about the Island itself then you need local support which can put the pressure on the politicians and do something constructive with the assets you hold on Island rather than have them removed from it which is hardly likely to endear you to local enthusiasts. The Island's people are more than its government and as you know many on the Island have expressed an interest in doing something constructive with the assets you hold there, but found no way to go about doing so because there is no effort to have any meetings or provide a way to join your society, or even any acknowledgement to their communication. You claim you do not have enough resources yet do not give a way of entry into your organisation for any locals who might bring further resources. The name change and the removal of items from the Island with little effort to engage with locals suggests that you just want to play trains with items acquired from a 3' Gauge 'Barry Island' and seeing as you are having problems doing so on the IOM you are going to the nearest convenient location that you can store Manx items at someone else's expense.

As regards any funding for the MNR coming from England, it was as a business venture for individuals who did make some money back (maybe not as much as they might have hoped), and the Manx population whose money this business aimed to extract more than paid back for the stock. Most of the damage done to the Island's railways seem to have been under the guidance of managers brought from England rather than local people. To be fair there was a lot of managers from the United Kingdom who did a great deal for the railways too (men like John Cameron for example). But ultimately when it's come to saving the railway and making significant investment since the black old days the bulk of it has come from the Manx taxpayer who have paid not only to save and maintain the stock still in our ownership, but also that of private individuals who have kept their items on site with little real action, then remove them on a whim rather than parting with them to an appropriate local custodian.

Perhaps I am wrong and perhaps you are serious about how passionate you are about the Island and respect its people? I am sure if you are, you cannot be genuinely happy that its people have been denuded of their heritage in this day and age and would in due course take appropriate steps to ensure that heritage was restored to the place where it truly belongs, whose people over the years have paid for it, and where it has spent the vast majority of its life. But I see little sign of this and it appears to me that you've taken every opportunity to discount the options available to save heritage in the place it belongs to, and instead accepted the most impractical options available despite wasting significant resources which could have been better spend on saving that heritage to get the items away from the Island whose government you blame for you deciding to remove its heritage.

Indeed local people too have paid into benefit the organisation which held assets on their Island (whether that be free storage at the taxpayers expense, or as I have done the purchase of items at one of the rare on Island events held by the until recently so called Isle of Man Railway and Tramway Preservation Society many years ago when your father was still alive). I can recall your Father and had respect for him and the way he was prepared to talk and listen to me, but I also remember as a very young enthusiastic boy attempting to engauge you with many questions after reading some of your books which surprisingly inspired in me a love of the of the IMR, MER and in particular MNR , and finding that you did not even appear to be bothered to talk to me. Such impressions formed at a relatively early age stick, but for a while I thought perhaps you received flack unfairly and even once or twice stuck up for you and your father (who I still hold respect for and wonder what his reaction would have been to the course of action you have chosen to take), and hoped that perhaps there would have been a way to get local people more actively involved in the organisation which held so many significant assets on Island, only to find it was a very closed shop, and with any attempt at enquiry meeting with silence. It is a sad day indeed when the Island has been robbed of its heritage due to the petty squabbles between a government department and a society which just happened to be in the right place at the right time on the right side of someone to aquire significant items of heritage which local individuals would have been prepared to preserve and do something constructive with given the right opportunity.

 

I saw the Cleminson coach in the new carriage shed at Douglas. Out of the period from the decision by the department to take it off display to when it came to Southwold I cannot give an X days here, Y days there breakdown, but it was in the carriage shed for a spell. I was familiar with the coach when it was in the museum and inspected it regularly, and that regular inspection ended when it was taken out of the museum contrary to our wishes and suggestions. I had a look at it with Colin Goldsmith a few years ago and there was some deterioration, but there was further deterioration when I examined in in 2012. Unless we assume it was the machinations of the Manx Buggane, something went wrong, and if the DCCL stock is suffering equally then it is a worry. Either our coach suffered uniquely for some odd reason with broken windows etc, or all stock suffers similarly. I do not know which. As it is no longer in that environment, it is an academic issue now, so is not a matter of concern.

I have always applauded Peter Rampton for preserving two Cleminson coaches and Julian Edwards for preserving one coach. They are the OWNERS and it is for them to decide what use they make of them, and in the case of Mr Rampton, I may say that there have been periodic friendly contacts over matters of interest over coach preservation, but I would not tell him or Mr Edwards what he should or should not do.

The name change was a simple practical issue. Our interests are related to three foot gauge stock, and stretch as far as Suffolk, so 'Isle of Man' was no longer geographically descriptive of our interests, and the words 'Isle of Man' in the title might have prejudiced a grant application in the UK, so apart from the geographical issue there was a financial one, as coach restoration is costly and a grant would not be unwelcome.

As usual you get your facts wrong. The current bus depot at Port Erin dates from Bill Lambden's time. Mr Lambden died before Bill Jackson arrived on the Island. The depot was built to make the old bus depot available for Museum use in 1975. That eliminated some of the trackage on the bay platform side of the station, and the joiner who did the woodwork on the bus depot also did much of the woodwork on the Cleminson coach repairs in 1975-76 so I can date that accurately.

Bill Jackson intended to demolish the old carriage shed and signal box at Douglas. I spoke to him and he agreed to leave half of it for rail use and let the SB survive. By contrast when I heard of the plan to demolish the station canopy at Castletown which had been a feature for best part of a century, OUR society offered to fund repairs, but unlike Bill Jackson, the Department than had no wish to listen, just as they did not listen to Mike Goodwyn over Derby Castle depot. Both decisions were stupid.

It was under Robert Smith that the old carriage shed was demolished to make way for the Kremlin office block. Again I suggested it be restored to provide adequate storage for stock, as it held 27 carriages. Likewise the demolition of the original Road Services Bus garage at near the foot of the Port Erin departure platform postdated Bill Jackson, as did the cut back of the trackwork between the old Peel and Port Erin arrival platforms.

A while back one reader expressed hatred towards us on the grounds that my late father had allegedly not replied to him in the 1980s. You accuse me of a similar crime. I think there are many people who can say that I have given them a great deal of information on railways if they have asked, and I had an email this month on a couple of obscure points about the MER in Ramsey which ended up in my consulting such references as Wood's atlas in an attempt to find an answer. A gentleman who had fallen ill contacted me about having a model built recently and I put him in touch with someone who I hoped might be able to help him, although doing so was very painful as I had a serious fall with a broken clavicle, a damaged back and 14 stitches in my head in May. Typing was extremely painful then and my back is not yet recovered, and I would prefer to be sitting in an armchair at this moment to sitting at my desk. Another query I had related to BR Type AF containers, as it was thought I might know that answer as I have written two books on BR freight stock. There is a finite limit to what I can do, much thought I wish there was not.

If you were asking questions during one of the Transport Weekends we organised, I had to attend to large numbers of people, up to 300 at one event, and a problem that anyone who attends exhibitions or shows is familiar with is that a detailed answer to A, may means that B and C are ignored, or must wait. I attended an exhibition less than a fortnight ago, and at one time had two people wanting to discuss quite separate issues at the same time, one being an obscure point about Glasgow Corporation Transport, the other being IOM related, so I had to give priority to one of them.

On occasion I have asked people who have an expertise in a particular field, and if they have the time and knowledge to assist me, I have been appreciative of any help, but I have never thought I had a God-given right to demand such help, or that they are monsters if they do not attend just to me, as they may have other duties to attend to. Some of my knowledge of GCT comes from the charming members of the STTS, and in return I was able to contribute two hitherto unexpected snippets of information, one about the destination screens on GCT Car 1089, and the other about the granite sett car conversions in the early 1900s, where I had discovered something that did not seem to have been appreciated hitherto. I regarded this as a VERY modest return for all the help I had.

You say "The Stanier 8F's and Riddles locomotives are obviously unwanted in the countries they resided in," Yes I would agree, but planning to set fire to the Cleminson in 1975 if we had not rescued it suggests it was unwanted on the Island in 1975, removing it from free display in the Port Erin Museum in the mid 1990s suggests it was unwanted by the Island twenty years later, and the Director of Transport valued it so highly that he proposed to dump it outdoor to rot in 2012. What do we make of that? Unwanted in 1975, in 1995 and in 2012. Who repeatedly suggested it SHOULD be displayed on the Island? I did, so you can add every year from the mid-nineties to 2012 to the unwanted pile. Not to take up the offer to have a Cleminson coach on display when even the NRM does not have one was an act of gross idiocy on the part of the Manx Authorities. I can assure you if I had been able to have the final say, it would not have been like that, but I had to put up with this nonsense year after year.

Robert Hendry

 

So given that the move to the UK was anticipated to be so productive in restoring the cleminson, what is the current update as we've not heard anything for the last 6 months apart from repetitions of the same old statements about the IOM govt? There's nothing to suggest any further work has been undertaken on the Cleminson on the Southwold blog, and as of yet I have not seen a website for the 3' Gauge society showing what they are doing to safeguard all their artifacts still currently on Island which are having nothing done with them?

Also noticeable is the lack of any sort of access to the group for those of us on the IOM. Could you please make it more accessible to those of us on Island, and provide a concrete guarantee that no further removal of any artifacts from the Island will occur, and actually give those of us on Island an opportunity to safeguard our heritage on Island and do something productive to display it here? Or is the plan to cart it all off Island in due course whilst making statements that no-one on the Island is interested in preserving their transport history? The way I see it is that really given past history you need on Island support to do something productive with the Manx items you've acquired as we are the ones who are in a position to apply political pressure, etc, and can get access to grants on Island, etc. Plus the items of transport history are of most relevance to us. If you genuinely care about preserving the Island's transport history as you claim and if you genuinely care about the Island and its people as you claim then why aren't you making your group open to us? And I don't accept the line about preventing hostile takeovers, etc, because the previous modus operandus (do little with the on Island items apart from have disputes over them and store them at Manx taxpayers expense) doesn't seem to have achieved much. It took over 20 (30?) years to actually get Fenella running because of petty stupid disputes, and after restoration it lay out of use for a considerable period of time again due to further disputes wasting boiler tickets. Surely you can achieve far more and have more impact on the government if you get some local members onside?....

 

Mr Thomson, this is obviously an issue between yourself and those who now have this coach, I'm sure I speak for many members of Nat Pres in saying that we are getting thoroughly fed up with the constant diatribes between yourself and others involved. In the interest of our sanity could you please contact those involved either directly or if you must use Nat Pres, privately using the PM or 'Conversations' button.

 

I don't think I've ever read the word "Island" so many times in one post!

A quick check on Google maps suggests a distance of approximately 372 miles from Douglas to Southwold if you go by ferry then drive down the M6. That's less than the distance from London to Edinburgh. In the great scheme of things, the Cleminson really isn't so very far from home. Think of the distances Americans or Australians travel to see their own railway heritage within their own country!

I don't see why every single item of Manx railway heritage should be confined to Island, in just the same way that I don't think we need to keep every single piece of UK railway heritage within the British isles. Think how much poorer railway preservation in Britain would be - particularly on the narrow gauges - if we decided to repatriate every piece of foreign railway equipment to its country of origin!

Please, Mr. Thomson, drop you parochialism and consider seeing a little more of the world than the Isle of Man!

 

I find this whole Island thing rather confusing. Aren't we all residing in the British Isles, so we're all on an Island one way or another. As others have said - how about conducting your long-running complaint directly with your perceived antagonists, as I for one don't see why they are obliged to post anything on here if they don't want to, and frankly, no one else appears to be interested.

 

I sincerely hope that Nat Pres members don't think that Allan's rather extreme views represent those of the majority of Manx enthusiasts. Whilst you would be hard pressed to find anyone here who would condone Robert Hendry's actions everything that had to be said was said a year ago - and I was one of he most vociferous. We can only hope that one day common sense will prevail and both the Cleminson and No7 will be returned to the Island.
IMHO there is absolutely nothing to be gained by antagonizing Robert and irritating other Forum members. If the Southwold website doesn't have any recent news regarding the Manx stock I would have thought that the obvious line of enquiry would be to e-mail or write to Robert or failing that visit Southwold. Unless his situation has changed recently Allan is a student in Liverpool so getting to Suffolk is even easier than travelling from the IoM. Ray.

 

Is there a shortage of items to restore on the IoM that has prompted this diatribe? If there are other unrestored items in need of restoration there could they not be focused on. Is Mr Thomson involved wit working on them. If he isn't it seems rather hypocritcal to have a go at someone whose stated aim is to restore the Cleminson coach.

 

I can assure you there is no shortage of restoration projects on the IoM. The Isle of Man Steam Railway Supporters Association is currently involved in the restoration of several lineside structures and from next weekend the re-vamp of Port Erin railway museum. Our website carries details of these projects. As far as I am aware the only IOMSRSA project in which Allan has been involved was helping repaint No6 'Peveril' in 1994 although he claims to have been involved in the restoration of the Snaefell waterwheel in Laxey. Unfortunately there are a lot of 'armchair preservationists' who always believe that "someone should do something about this or that, as long as it's not me!" To be fair however Mr Hendry always has "stated aims" but in over 30 years little to show for it. Ray.

 

As per usual the usual flurry of comment - if you're not interested then don't read the thread simple. I find it rather alarming that so called preservationists feel that the movement of a significant item of rolling stock isn't an issue, and that preservation shouldn't be taking place in the public domain.. And it's just as parochial to suggest that everything should somehow be moved to the adjacent Island away from those to whom its history is most relevant and somehow 'centralised' in a place where it's just another bit for a collection. I find it amusing that the fact you perceive me as 'parochial' is somehow more important than the engines, coaches. electric trams etc left to languish under the ownership of the now so called 3' Gauge society whichstill as of yet have no clear plan for preservation, and which those of us located closest to have no way of getting involved in their preservation. No doubt you would all be delighted if significant items of transport history rot away so you don't have to hear about the matter?

Marshall with regard to your "although he claims to have been involved in the restoration of the Snaefell waterwheel in Laxey" can I suggest you visit the blog and also take a trip down to the washing floors where you will see my name on the plaque by the lower level side of the wheel - where you will see the clear evidence that I was involved with the restoration of the wheel - so cut the "he claims to"? Yes I was involved in Peveril's restoration, after that point there didn't seem to be much in the way of projects taking place, so saw little point in being involved in the society so I didn't see any point in remaining a member.

Marshall I would be perfectly happy in popping along the road and helping you out with your projects, and as I have a little more spare time of late am considering getting back involved in the projects of the association, or perhaps instead at Laxey where the heritage group has done significantly more to preserve items of tramway rolling stock than the IOMSRSA has with railway stock. It's only in the last few years where any form of activity has started to take place (apart from the requests to dig into your pockets to fund something which when you don't have much money isn't exactly as good a way to contribute as getting involved - however the chance to get physically involved instead would be preferable).In the past I've also been actively involved with umpteen other island organisations and activities, so cut the 'armchair'. Yes there is no shortage of projects on the IOM, but over the last twenty or so years but with regards to the steam railway very little has taken place until very very recently. And as I've already pointed out there seems to be no way of actually getting involved with the preservation of at risk rolling stock (with the exception of the work at Laxey) as it all seems to be under the ownership of the IOMTRPS/3" Gauge society who don't seem to give the opportunity for anyone on Island to get involved at all.....

 

Allan, I do not wish to engage in verbal jousting with you, I was simply answering 61624's question. I'm sure that Laxey Heritage greatly appreciate your past efforts and future offers of help. I can assure you that my comment re 'armchair preservationists' wasn't specifically aimed at you but .... Ray.

 

I'm not for a minute suggesting that everything on the Isle of Man should be moved to Great Britain! But, equally, the IoM clearly has more rolling stock than can at present be either used operationally or displayed at Port Erin museum. Many of them, like Sutherland, the Pairs coaches, the County Donegal railcars, or numerous MER tramcars are currently stored out of public view, some of them in a dismantled state. Even if volunteers like yourself could get access to them to restore them, would the nationalised railway network be able to fund their subsequent upkeep? Even if a museum big enough to display them all could be built on the Island, would it be viable? There would be a number of duplicate items in any such display - fine for enthusiasts, but not so interesting for the general public who would have to make up the majority of paying visitors if it were to be viable.

So if a museum on the mainland were to offer to restore one or two items, and display them to an appreciative audience, alongside narrow gauge railway equipment from other parts of the Britain and the world with which they would make an interesting comparison - I'd be all for that! If we worked on the principle that everything should stay on home territory then you'd have to disband the NRM for starters - and that would be a terrible loss.

Now I appreciate that we haven't heard much of much progress on the Manx stock at Southwold but equally, the information that is available suggests that it is not "rotting away" - the Southwold blog claims that the Cleminson is protected by a tent, which is more than can be said for a lot of heritage carriages. They may not be moving forward, but as long as their condition doesn't deteriorate, I'm not too worried - they'll still be there for future generations to tackle. A look through the sidings at many heritage railways will reveal many heritage carriages in far worse condition than the Cleminson, and with less weather protection. Personally I'd rather prioritise those!

 

i agree with Ray 100%
i have followed with some detail the disputes with the Hendrys over the years, and despite loving their books and connections with the old company, more recent events have unfortunately soured this view. there is an awful lot that needs doing to preserve the IOMSR and it's valuable historical locos and rolling stock, superb buildings, etc. almost one of the UK's forgotten gems. (is UK correct for the IOM?). my grandparents took me there on holiday in the very early 1970's when you could see all the old locos in that fabulous station at DOUGLAS. nothing in mainland UK compares even today! perhaps with it's Victorian wooden coaches only the IOWSR compares these days (again non-mainland UK). please support this railway and it's supporters association! please visit and ride behind something quite unique in the British Isles!
cheers,
julian

 

My point is, once everything that is still on the IoM is restored, that is the time to start looking to repatriate. On the whole, the wave of imports to the UK mainland didn't start until virtually all the available "home grown" stock was restored and there was an appetite for yet more. The sad fact is that the IoM has one of the jewels of the NG world, and there doesn't seem to be sufficient interest to restore what there is of it on the island in private hands, let alone add more. I'd take Mr. Thomson more seriously if he had a track record of restoring other IoMR coaches, rather than pining for this particular one that has left the island.